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Haters Driving Arsenal On

Earlier in the week Tim Stillman wrote an article entitled 'The Question Of Them And Us'. In it, he discussed how Arsene Wenger could use a siege mentality to drive his players on and make them more determined.

Tim explained how Geoprge Graham used the same tactic during his time at Arsenal to great success.

Well with that, along with the mental strength the current Arsenal squad is showing, in mind I say this: All the managers and football officials bashing Arsenal for whatever reason, are doing us a massive favour.

In the last few weeks Ryan Giggs, Sepp Blatter, Michel Platini, Alex Ferguson and Ryan Giggs have all slammed Arsenal's policy of recruiting youngsters from abroard and turning them into the likes of Cesc Fabregas and Robin Van Persie.

Now, players like the aforementioned have very strong, driven personalities. Hearing people say that they shouldn't be here, or that some of their team mates and friends should not be here will do one thing - drive them on. And that's without Le Prof saying a word.

Mourinho became the latest person to have a swipe at Arsenal. I read the following extract from Jose Mourinho's modestly named book: 'Jose Mourinho, A Born Winner': 'Unlike Arsenal, we sought success and tried to build it through a concept of the game using English players.

'That was to have a positive effect, on the dressing room and on the press, in terms of the image that the club would project.

'We had to get players who fitted the profile of the team but without running the risk of filling the club with foreign players because that could bring us problems in handling the players in the dressing room and the press, which is sensitive to the use of English players and doesn't easily forgive clubs which misrepresent the championship with complete intakes of foreign footballers.

'Of course the animosity of the English against (Roman) Abramovich was due to the idea that was established that the Chelsea owner was going to transform the club into a depot of players who came and went without any criteria other than spending money.'


We all know the man talks bo***cks. But his comments not only got me thinking about what I just mentioned, they also made me chuckle to myself and got me thinking: 'More Arsenal bashers please.'

How ironic would it be if the people trying to disrupt Arsenal were one of the major reason's for us winning a piece of silverware come May?




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The Journalist

Writer: Nick Simmonett  Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Thursday November 15 2007

Time: 6:25PM

Your Comments

I don't actually think its a case of haters. I can see how Arsenal may think so because of the overseas/English balance of your squad. I think a telling comment was made by Michael Owen. He said that while the introduction of overseas players has undoubtedly helped the quality of the Premiership, there is a concern, that certain English players, particularly late developers are being squeezed out in favour of very young overseas players - not established stars - who have had the opportunity to develop their technical skills earlier. A interesting example is 'Ian Wright' ... he only broke into the game in his early 20s. Would he have ever been given or chance would he have been flung on the scraphead by this weeks latest whizz kid?
EnglishSpur
If we weren't successfull we wouldn't get a mention so maybe there is some backhanded compliment in all the rubbish that is directed towards us. I read the Mourinho extract and thought that he was in fact saying "I had to play this boring percentage game because the club wanted English players and that was the only way they could play" If that is true, and it is only if, then thank heaven Wenger has higher principles. Certainly the Arsenal fans are grateful for it and in a way the fact that it gets up the noses of others makes it all the more satisfying.
Amos.
The english player debate is starting to get stale. it one thing or the other when it come to arsenal. always looking for the negative when it comes to us! No one as why english players dont invade other clubs! no one stopping them! in my opnion it a combo of three things. Too expensive, too over rated and not adventurous enough! cesc came when chances where lacking in barca. whane the last time u heard of a english teen in euro? if they good enough scouts will come. This is a case of not being able to compete and try to get the laws to change in your favour.
NeoGunner
The Ian Wright point is a reasonable one ES (et c.,). I think he would still make it though whether his qualities would have been completely at home in the current Weger side I am not so sure. But someone like Marlon King has trod a similar path having played non league at Dulwich Hamlet before joining Gillingham at 20. He has only played one season in the Premiership but Watford are sitting pretty at the moment. Were he available would almost certainly be taken up by a mid table Premiership side.
Amos.
We bought Henry when he was 22, plying his trade as a 'winger who could not make a decent cross' as many Juventus fans had touted him. If a player has class he will make it no matter what. Hence the late developer issue is out of question.
Joe_@**
Please can anyone tell me when the last time england did well in Youth competion euro or world wise? the kids who did well in u-17 world cup recently are getting contracts in different euro leagues. cant be only arsenal fault as at that age there still in the youth teams. england just need to adapt, old rules dont apply. i rather have our form of total footie with foreigners than an uncopmpetetive substitute!
NeoGunner
Geoprge Graham - another French signing lads? Siege mentality! Sorry patented already by Leeds!
merlin
England U17-team world cup, in South Korea 18 August-9 September, made it to the Quarter Finals, after finishing top of their group ahead of Brazil - who were incidently knocked out in the L16
EnglishSpur
And how many Arsenal players are playing in the English youth teams.
Armory
The England U21 team has been doing a pretty decent job over a very consistent period of time, so that shows there is players coming through. Infact if you watch the commitment you get from the U21's it puts the seniors to shame & thats why England are rubbish. As soon as a player becomes half decent they get paid fortunes & think they have made it. As for Arsenal, no other premier league team has more England U17's or U16's than Arsenal. I think Man Utd have an equal amount but not totally sure on that, which just shows that behind the scenes Wenger is actually doing a lot of work to have future English players!!
Ashburton Gooner
I recently saw an interview with Arsene Wenger who said somethig along the lines of 'Foreign players didn't come to the Premiership until 1996. England won the world cup in 1966, so what excuse can we use for England not doing ver well for the previous 30 years?' As soon as everyone admits that English players are not educated as well as players from other nations the better. Everyoe wants a quick fix for the England team, yet no-one is prepared to work. Except, rather ironically, Arsene Wenger. AW has spent the last 10 years building one of the finest football academies in Europe, and it's now paying dividends. Only Middlesboro have more youth players in the England youth set up than Arsenal (well that was the cse a few months ago according to an article in the guardian). More than Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs......all the people slagging us off. Wenger's genius is his vision, and his visions will make everyones moking look rather pointless in a few years time. Of course all the naysayers will claim that Wenger has only folded to much pressure from his peers, when the truth of the matter will be that Wenger has been planning this for years.
Rocky7
I like this article, well thought out and indeed yes Wenger could and should turn all this to his advantage. Given the volume and number of very, very high profile people raising concerns over the Arsenal situation, many of whom have no real axe to grind one way or another, it would make most people stop and think, Why, which is the weakness of the article, it lacks balance in that sense. It would be like a glass of ice cold strongbow " a refreshing change" to read an article from arsenal that tries to genuinely understand, and address why all the fuss is coming the gunners way.
Tonytime
Rocky - noone will answe you that question. You will never hear some of the supporters who have a strong English base in their clubs (that are average to crap) say "we're not good enough" or "something is rotten in the house of FA". Ever since $h1tloads of money started pouring into the EPL (after the arrival of the evil evil foreign players and especially that evil wizard Wenger - the destroyer of England's finest), accompanied by the traditional no-show of England at every major tournament did this become a topic of debate. Terry, Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard together make more than half a mil. GBP a WEEK, yet they can't beat Macedonia at the new Wembley, the stadium that ate up enough money to build the best youth academy in the world.
G4L
And it would make a refreshing change for people to actually do some research before slating the Gunners for their 'anti-Englishness'. Read my post above, ca nobody find a good word for what Wenger is doing for the FUTURE of English football? Everyone wants 'here & now' but it isn't that simple. English football academies have been light years behind the rest of the world for a very long time. Yet clubs who hve managed to produce (or as in most cases, have bought) good English players, they have used these instances as a weapon to point fingers at people such as Wenger. While they have been doing this they have neglected to address the issues with their academies and are happy with mediocre English players and the rare decent one. Wenger has address all the problems and will reap the rewards soon enough. I think the media is largely responsible for this here and now attitude, and luckyily for us, Wenger see's the bigger picture and in a few years time everyone will have to find another person to pick on, and although Wenger would be entitled to top the table, he has more class than that.
Rocky7
"something is rotten in the house of FA" no problem saying that, its blantantly, obviously very true, can't get any clearer than that !! it changes nothing regards this situation and how people both on the street and very high profile football people perceive Arsenals policies currently.
Tonytime
But their perception is wrong TT. Which I keep trying to tell you. Wenger's job is to do his very best for Arsenal football club, which he has done in an undeniably spectacular fashion. To achieve this his has hd to buy cheap & mostly foreign. This too has worked. Yet what people don't see is that he has also resolved the problem of not being able to produce many English payers good enough to be in our team. This is because English academeies are crap, but you can't make them good overnight, which is why Wenger has done what he has done. It's just people like you are too blinkered to actually see what's going on. Here's my advice to you. Stop reading newspapers and watching match of the day, and do some proper research before making acusations which are quite clearly, to anyone with a mind open enough to look to the future, wrong!!
Rocky7
If its all just a case of Arsenal having tons of great English talent coming through, soon, my view not that you want it is that Wenger might be a great coach and manager, but he is totally crap at PR, the inclusion of one or two more English players could have stopped this anti Arsenal tirade from ever starting, and don't pretend that not one single English player is not good enough for Arsenal, because its not true. It is a shame , it's right to say why should he include them if he doesn't want to, but the tons of media pages on this issues surely suggest why he should have, great manager obviously, poor PR definitely. Arsenal is one of our greatest English clubs and for them to end up in this anti English, controversial role, does not do justice to the club or its many fans. Slate me if you like but I am talking as a football lover, and trying to be rational, its a PR disaster that could and should have been avoided.
Tonytime
Еven if you wanted to have those supposedly 'world class' players at your club: what is the price? I have one name to answer that - Darren Bent. Chelski and Manure are the only two clubs that have a solid English base that costs as much as the whole Arsenal team. So what can the clubs that have no billionaire(s) do? Even Liverpool with all the money decided to buy Torres (not Bent) and not to nurture a talent like, say, Neil Mellor. They also contribute to England with a fantastic English base of Gerrard and Crouch (who can't buy himself a game). There's the "almost there" clubs like Villa and Everton who have average English players, and there is of course the awesome Sp*rs (LOL). It is a lame and boring topic, forced upon us by hypocrites, underachievers and liars.
G4L
What has his PR got to do with anything? I have seen a few journolist clever enough to look at the players coming through and write good articles concerning what Wenger is doing. There is too many red tops far too lazy to be arsed going through the trouble of througholy researching the subject. If people want to shoot from the hip and create issues where there are none, then it will be them who look stupid when Wenger's plans come to fruition. Wenger has far too much on his plate to defend every accusation of 'anti-englishness'.
Rocky7
I would give up, but somehow I just can't, that was a sincere and heart felt olive branch, somehow on this arsenal site you just wont or cant budge an inch, which entrenches positions and its my belief why people keep critcising, a tiny degree of acceptance that perhaps on just one or two of the many issues, the critics have a point, would work wonders. Sadly its not to be and so it keeps coming from all quarters, when it really need not. Que sera sera.
Tonytime
The inclusion of one or two more English players would have been only on the basis of their nationality and not on their ability. When your aim is to create the best team that you can thats a betrayal of higher principles. Wengers job is to make people like his football not neccessarily to please the tabloid press. Within Arsenal Football Club there are a number of English players. We have contributed strongly to recent England Youth teams in many cases more so than our peers. All of these facts scorn the anti-English tag that the disengenuous look to place upon us. Football support is partisan but there is no PR disaster other than in the minds of those inclined to dislike us anyway. There are also many views broadly supportive of what Arsenal are looking to do and identifying the real problems that lie behind the failure of English Football to produce enough players good enough to compete at the highest level. You may have to look a little harder for them but they do exist. Try http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=493474&in_page_id=1951&in_author_id=342 for one of them. Arguably Arsenal are doing more in the name of quality of English players even if the quantity isn't there yet though Trevor Brooking acknowledges we are doing more than most.
Amos.
There's no reason to budge though. For the last time, Wenger was employrf to take Arsenal football club to the highest heights. The English footballers available to him we not good enough or too expensive, so he went for foreigners. However, instead of just saying foreigners are better players, he also went about addressing that problem and building facilites capable of producing great English players whilst remaining at the pinicle of top flight fooball. How many other managers have commissioned centres such as this rather than waiting for an incompetant Football Associsation to start doing something?? These are simple facts to grasp, so I can only assume one of three things..... 1) You are very very stupid 2) You are a close minded person who flatly refuses to open his mind just a little bit to see the bigger picture 3) You actually agree (even just a little bit) and don't want to lose face 4) You have been ignoring me.
Rocky7
Tonytime, it is not Arsenal's PR - it is the anti Arsenal brigade that keeps banging on this. Why is noone slating Liverpool? Because of ONE man Steven Gerrard? Or clubs like Birmingham, Fulham, that have few (crap) English players? Because they are not successful. End of.
G4L
Or one of 4 things even...lol
Rocky7
And say hello to Laughingnorm when you see him. Greetings from all of us at Vital Arsenal.
G4L
Totally agree with you Amos. My view is that Arsenal football club wouldn't exist without it's fans. We pay the money to see the games, we buy the merchandise, we wear the shirt. Just as the fans of other teams do with theirs. Why should we have to put up with all this nonsense just because somebody outside of the club, somebody that doesn't pay a penny towards the running of, or the existence of our club, is unhappy with our player selections. We're the guys who pay to be entertained, and we're getting excellent value for money, what has that got to do with anybody else? Some people prefer to go to the cinema for their entertainment. Are we going to now start bringing in some quotas on English actors per movie cast too? May sound like a selfish attitude to the more patriotic amongst us, but that's my opinion. I mean, would you buy a car for somebody else to go drive it around?
flv
This is a debate that's got ahead of steam recently it seems and it's obvious the two primary reasons are 1) Arsenal playing beautiful football and winning and 2) England on the verge of exiting the Euro Championship. Like him or lump him, Sven (a foreigner) made qualifying for tournaments pretty smooth for England. McLaren (err English) takes over and lo and behold England are struggling - and even McLaren is voicing concerns about the lack of English players in the PL. There are a number of excellent points made here by us Arsenal fans, such as why aren't English youngsters being tapped up by foreign clubs?? Not even one?! Can Tonytime or EnglishSpur answer that one please?
Gooner_Vin
Some top points; I wish I had found this article sooner. To add onto Gooner_Vin's point; I see where you're goin' at mate: if they were worth tapping up, some other PL club would've splashed millions over them, ruin their concentration and their future.
Phantom of the Grove
love it nick! " Ryan Giggs, Sepp Blatter, Michel Platini, Alex Ferguson and Ryan Giggs " lol..
korodon
I think it should in a way be taken as a compliment, albeit an annoying one. As G4L said, nobody bangs on about Liverpool not having enough English players or the fact that Chelsea only bought three Englismen under Mourinho (each of which has Arsenal connections) and nobody questions why Birmingham and Fulham dont have any Englishmen not just because of success, or people would say the same about Pool, but because of the way we play. The same people who criticise Arsene for his lack of English players really just want to see England play the game like Arsenal and English players to be schooled in the Wenger-ball way. The problem with this though is, Ashley Cole being the example, once you take a player out of the Wenger system and put them in a side that plays MacLaren or Allardyce football they lose their quality as it is not just the individuals ability but the system that makes the players look so good.
Ozi Gooner
I am so bloody bored of the foreigner "debate" and am hardly suprised that it rears its ugly head as the natonal side are about to fail qualification..... The sad thing is that deflects attention from the real issue, which is the way kids are coached at grass roots.... Nevermind though, as long as there's a scrape goat eh? Long may it continue if this is the effect it has on our team... As the special case, from f365s mediawatch: Number of players bought permanently for Chelsea by Mourinho in his three years in charge: 23 Number of English players: 4 Two of whom graduated from Arsenal's youth set-up
KaoTeK
As *for* the special case even
KaoTeK
Tonytime is spot on, a more balanced debate is needed, and I also don't believe that every one that raises a concern is anti Arsenal. I'm a little amazed that so many people view it as such; I believe it's only natural that when one of the most successful sides in EPL has no English players in that question will be asked. Their have been some good points raised about the quality of our academies, and that is undoubtedly the crux of the matter. I have read on here before that you have a rake of young talent waiting to emerge, as for the comments that every one hates Wenger. That is absolutely nonsense, must people have a lot of respect for the man as a coach. Sorry if my comments have been covered already, but just logged on and am working my way down comments.
Topspur1
G4L I think most the points that Tonytime are quite valid, no one is saying that Arsenal should go out and spend £16.5m on Bent (who is 23yrs old). The question being asked is where are the 18/19/20yrs old coming through your academy, I agree with a lot of your points about FA not getting their act together. I also agree that most clubs do not spend enough money on youth development; my club is a typical example. We are just starting to address the situation, I agree that most English players are over hyped and over paid. But in 11yrs at your club, I would have expected a coach of Wenger ability would have had a steady stream of young players coming through. Their no hidden agenda here, just genuine concern for our national team.
Topspur1
You have answered your own point to some extent Topspur. Most clubs do not spend enough on youth development - but Arsenal has. It should also be noted that the FA whose team it is that is demanding that youth be developed has ignored youth development while spending millions on a stadium. Arsenal are ahead of many on youth development despite spending on its own stadium. You ask for a balanced debate but can include a statement in your post that Arsenal has no English players while 5 have made appearances for the team so far this season. You ask where our 18/19/20 year olds are while failing to acknowledge the success we have had in featuring players in the recent U17 tournament and at other youth levels. It is still neccessary to first be 17 before becoming 18. At the same time you acknowledge that clubs like your own have only just started to address this situation whereas Arsenal started a few years earlier. You expect Wenger to have a steady stream of young English players coming thorugh after 11 years but have no similar expectation of Ferguson though he has been in place for 20 years. This focus on Arsenal as being the embodiment of everything thats bad for English football doesn't stand up to to the simplest scrutiny yet rivals sometimes out of ignorance but more often out of spite see this as a stick to beat us with. In truth I don't really care whether the motivation is anti-Arsenal or not. The club is successfull enough to stick two fingers up to its detractors but those determined to criticise our club on these forums shouldn't expect to peddle their ill informed prejudices without encountering some form of reasoned rebuttal.
Amos.
I'd have more concern for teams at the lower end of the Premiership who continually play average foreigners instead of average English players. Nobody could look around our team and criticise the talent on show. Tell me which english players (affordable or cheaper than the price we paid) that are better than the player we have in that position. You'll be hard pressed.
hatespur
TS1, Wenger has made it clear on numerous occasions that it has taken an eternity to build a core group of talented English youngsters in Arsenal's youth team. Its no good saying "he's been at the club 11 years", because thats actually not a very long time in terms of building a major project from the foundations upwards. Arsenal were I believe the first club (in this country) to set up an academy which also included the schooling/education. Its due to this that we do now have a talented youth system at Arsenal http://www.arsenal.com/fixtures.asp?s=0708&CLID=4437&thisNav=reserves%20and%20youth&Title=Arsenal+Youth+Team+Fixtures this is a group of kids which has been made up this season more or less entirely of English players. They sit top of the their academy league for the 2nd straight season. The problem when Wenger arrived was a fairly simple one, some of the kids may have been fine technically but they had been brought up completely wrong & this in turn meant for the most part their attitude was awful. It's no coincidence for me that Justin Hoyte is currently still at the club despite the fact he wasn't one of the better players in the youth team, however he was brought up by parents who knew all about sport (both being athletes) so his attitude is totally different to the majority. If in 5 years Arsenal still have no english players then I think it would be fair to start looking at Wenger, however right now it seems the world & his dog want to blame Arsene for the mess that is the English FA. Just ask yourself who it was that wanted McClaren anyway?? It certainly wasn't the axed Dein & seen as we are currently told every other day that Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Beckham & Rooney are the best players in the world in their position (so thats 7 of the first choice 11 & one who has been injured & dropped because McClaren wanted to make a statement when he took over) then who's fault is it that England are s***? As for the lack of english talent coming through its amazing how that argument rears its head at every international break & then next week when premier league kicks off again we will be told how great Micah Richards, Walcott, Lennon, Nugent, Young, Agbolahor, Vaughan, Onuoha, Noble, Taylor & Carson etc are (I could carry this list on & on)!!
Ashburton Gooner
Amos I may not have mentioned Man U. specifically, but my comments regarding clubs not investing in youth development includes all PL clubs. I acknowledge that their have been 5 players featured in your 1st team, but since Cashley Cole their has not been one that I would call regular 1st team player. This debate is focusing on 1st team squad, so while I accept that your future may be bright at present you do not have one English 1st team regular. As for hatespur comments (you have no idea how difficult it was to type hatespur) he's is off course spot on, possibly the discussion should be focused on the mediocre foreign players in the PL. No one objects to quality overseas players, it's the dross that makes their way into PL that is possibly the real problem. Believe me we have one or two that I wish weren't their, but we all know that when your at the top of the pile the critisism will occur.
Topspur1
http://www.arsenal.com/squad.asp?thisNav=Reserves+and+Youth&lid=Reserves+Coaching+Staff&clid=4436 Can you all shut up now please? That is the end of the debate.
Gunnerman
So while regretting that we have not been willing to spend upwards of £16m for a token Englishman for the first team squad simply to please the tabloids you accept that we are doing more than most to develop quality young English players Topspur. Well thats good. I feel that you have benefited from your visit here and will now go out and spread the word amongst your fellow supporters.
Amos.
Topspur (you have no idea how difficult it is for me to type that). I agree.
hatespur
I for one do not blame Wenger for England’s plight, their is more than enough talent in this England side to have qualified. However I don't see much coming through that I would be excited about, Richards would be the exception and he's a defender. That pretty much says it all; at least this debate has been a little more constructive and reasoned compared to previous ones
Topspur1
You have made your points in a constructive and reasoned manner Topspur which from most contributors here invites a response in kind. Others would do well to follow your example.
Amos.
Topspur, if we had a choice every debate would be conducted in the same manner. What I object to is small minded bigoted comments automatically attacking Arsenal's lack of investment in english talent (ahem), without willingness to consider a counter discussion. Your fellow Spur Jacky B spent much of his time on here and always managed to have a balanced view and participate in a little banter. At the end of the day most of us are pretty similar with regards to our life loves (family then football) and just happen to support different clubs. We are fortunate in that respect. It is a pleasure to have a discussion with a rival that whilst not necessarily being in agreement, will consider and even partially concur with some aspects of what we have said.
hatespur
Topspur, everytime the foreigner debate comes up in the media, people prefer to take the lazy way out by blaming Arsenal. Having read those well thought out points made above (which really prove the opposite), you can understand why it annoys us when this happens.
prits
Yep props to Topspur (and Jake) for the way in which they conduct themselves, it's always good to see things from different angles, and the forum is richer for their contributions.
KaoTeK
I think Wenger's comment regarding England from 66 to 96 is spot on. It;s very well for Steven Gerrard to sit there and pontificate, but where is the young English talent in the Liverpool team? He and Carragher have been there for yonks. And any good English kids that come through cost ridiculously disproportionate sums. I would love to see more English players in the Arsenal team, but only if they're good enough.
Moorish
wholeheartedly agree Moorish. I would love to see a few local lads playing for Arsenal, but only if they have the required talent, and the right mentality ie. not thinking that just cos they are english they should be in the first team, nevermind the fact that there is a world class player for them to prove they are more deserving of a place than. Having to compete with world class foreign players to gain a place in the RAsenal team actually improves the standard of the english players, rather than allowing them to stagnate in a pool of substandard quality and long balls....

and yes, credit to topspur, it is refreshing to read someone who can see through the bull that the media present, and that most people swallow hook line and sinker with even bothering to engage their brains... »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Keep your hands off Gabby, he's going nowhere!
DeanoVilla
And we don't want him. Problem solved.
hatespur
Well Moorish I'm afraid you are probably right, their is not one at Liverpool as you say. Manure have 7 in their 1st team, but none of them are exactly young and for the future (Rooney excluded). Chelski are the same 5 in first team squad, but again all have been around for a while. Only Lennon at spurs, Middlesbrough can hold their head high as can the spammers. That's about it really
Topspur1
Sorry forgot about Villa, they have one or two promising youngsters. Although Gabby & Davies were bought in.
Topspur1
The youngsters at Middlesbrough aren't good enough, hence why they are doing so rubbish!! Everton seem to have a couple of very good ones & do so on a consistent basis. Thats the whole point of this discussion, I see little value in every premier league club bringing through loads of english players (which would make the premier league totally average) just so the national team has a choice of 60+ useless players!! Where will the improvement be then?? I think the problem lays with the smaller clubs (clubs in the championship & below). Those clubs need to develop the talent because in the premier league there is just too much pressure for clubs to take a chance, not just the big 4 but any club. Clubs have to spend to compete & in doing so they then can't afford to be relegated so its a catch 22. Of course you can do it the watford/derby way & not spend but you're guranteed relegation. Reading were the exception to that but they will probably go this year. I think what Wenger/Benitez have said previously is correct, if teams like Arsenal/Liverpool were allowed B Teams that could play upto championship level, you would then see better quality english players. As it stands any Arsenal fan can tell you how many excellent prospects we have but they only get to play in the academy league or reserve league & the level there just isn't good enough. The only other option would be to make the bigger clubs adopt a club from the championship down & then supply that club with players, although how that would work out if the team was then promoted I don't have a clue.
Ashburton Gooner
In case anyone missed that, it was the link to the current Arsenal reserve team squad, i.e. the future of Arsenal FC. And it is full of English players, hence, for those with enough of a brain to saunter over to the Arsenal FC website and check the squads, it would immediately occur to them that Wenger is in fact doing as much as he can in developing young English talent. Now, points duly noted from everyone above, I appreciate the debate has been constructive and amicable. The more so now TT isn't involved. Here's hoping those with the mental capacity can follow the link posted above, and if they still come back with the same argument it would prove their complete inability to see the facts.
Gunnerman
Much as I can see the advantage to us of having a 'B' team in the lower leagues I can't believe it is at all healthy for football overall. Arguably clubs like Arsenal have too much power already and if that power were allowed to influence the development of other clubs in the lower leagues becuase of the financial power they can call on then the task of striving to progress through the divisions will be made that much harder. It may well aid the faster development of English players but we should be careful what we wish for.
Amos.
I read an article yesterday referring to loan agreements, basically he was saying that if the loan agreement rules were relaxed so clubs could call players back at will (Can't remember where I read it now). Then clubs would be able to loan reserve and youth players out almost on a monthly basis, their is a huge problem with giving reserve players competitive games. I don't believe in having reserve team playing in lower leagues, although you could probably make an argument for them playing in the senior semi pro leagues, although I'm not sure the standard would be good enough.
Topspur1
The standard would be absolutely nowhere near good enough, that'd be like my mates playing against Fabregas if he's coming back from injury!
AFC85Lew
Visited site and was surprised to see a Gavin Hoyte, I assume he's is Justin brother? I have posted this thought on here before but got very little response. What do we think about the prospect of the PL giving a larger slice of the TV revenue to lower league clubs, with the proviso that this extra money is spent on their academy set up. Most clubs in the lower leagues struggle to finance proper academies and scouting networks, if this could be implemented surely it would be good for football. If every championship club was given an extra £1m for argument sake, and 1st division £750,000 and so on. In the scheme of things it's not a lot of money, and it would mean we would end up with 50/60 excellent academies around the country. It would mean we would probably have to put more effort in getting maybe more x players involved coaching and working with youngsters
Topspur1
Amos, isn't a faster development of talented english players what this whole debate is about. Look at players like David Bentley, he was too good for the reserve league so Wenger sends him on loan to Norwich, from that point on he wanted out unless he was guranteed first team football. Its taken him about 3 years to develop into a decent player, if he had any patience at all he would've made it at Arsenal & would now be a first team regular especially with all the injuries we've had over those past couple of years. However he chose Blackburn & whilst he is doing well right now his career will stagnate unless he moves on, because they are a very limited team. If Arsenal had a b team playing in the championship, those players would have a decent prize to aim at each season, it would help develop the other teams to compete & wouldn't stop any of them being promoted because the b team wouldn't be able to gain promotion. Players would then be more likely to stay patient a little longer & in the end this would benefit the english game!! As things stand right now, you have to be very talented & very lucky to make it at clubs like arsenal. Cesc got that luck because of Marseille blocking Flamini from playing in the community shield. If Flamini had been free to play Cesc wouldn't have featured, this in turn would have kept him a reserve player rather than being listed high up in the first team squad & the whole complexion of his career may well have been different (nobody will ever know for sure, including Cesc who said last week he didn't ever believe he would be a footballer, even when he was in arsenal's reserves).
Ashburton Gooner
Topspur, that thought is good in theory but what you would actually do is basically cripple clubs like ours (spurs/arsenal) who rely on the tv deals & in turn allow teams like chelski & even aston villa who have billionaire owners to continue buying whomever they want. That only benefits clubs with rich owners but punishes clubs that are well run!!
Ashburton Gooner
AG yes this debate is about faster development of young english players but if it is at the cost of increasing the power of the bigger clubs to the detriment of the smaller ones I wonder if the price is worth paying. This is about the national team run and administered by the FA. It receives funds already from television, matches and member clubs. That has to be the body that establishes and maintains an academy that reinforces the development of English players at all clubs but in particular the smaller ones that can't maintain an academy at a decent level. Until and unless the FA shows a willingness to invest the already substantial funds it receives in developing players for its teams over the long term and not just as a knee jerk response to current qualification struggles, instead of ignoring the benefits of national academies in other countries, then I don't see why anyone else should.
Amos.
This article just about sums it all up: http://www.goal.com/en-us/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=480870
sport
Having seen a number of pointlessly antagonistic posts mainly from persons of the TT/ES ilk, reading through this series of posts and reading balanced and objective arguments from Topspur is restoring my faith in humanity. WHat is preventing that faith from being fully restored is the lazy and one-sided journalism that is serving to feed the minds of people too lazy or stupid to form their own opinions, take the article in todays (16.11.07) SUn at page 23, starts with the heading 'HOW FOREIGNERS HAVE SWAMPED TOP FOOTIE CLUBS' This sort of drivel just feeds the moronic masses, and gives a false impression of 'people power' that the witless and spineless FA will probably feel they have to bow to. The sun do include Arsene's comments, but at the bottom of the page almost as a footnote. Trying to stir up nationalistic feeling and sensationalistic headlines to sell papers is just a cheap shot which continues to obscure the root cause of the problem, which has been well documented above, namely the lack of FA investment in youth academy. It is not, AG or TS, the responsibility of the top clubs or the money men to develop the national team - that is the remit of the Fa, and it is the sweet FA that they have done about it that has caused this problem. The FA have failed in their responsibility to nurture and develop ENglish talent, and cannot pass that buck onto anybody else. The sooner the national rags realise this and call for changes to the FA, the sooner that steps will be taken to resolve the issue. In the meantime, every ENglishman should think about thanking, not slating Wenger for taking the first step to resolve the problem, when it was not even Arsenal's problem to try and resolve. In a few years time, we may hopefully have a core of the ENgland TEam that play football the Arsenal way, and, who knows, it may even become a joy rather than a heartache to watch ENgland play.
Cesky
Amos we all know by now if we wait for the FA it will never happen, we pay the biggest salary in international football. Have we got the best manager? No!!! They can't even get that right, do we really want to leave the future of English football. Amos one of the reason English players cost so much is because we don't produce enough of them, if PL allocated funds for academies at smaller clubs. Hopefully we would produce more Gerards, Rooney & Jermaine Jenas (just thought I'd throw JJ in their). And as a result prices of English players would fall, also when teams like Watford get promoted hopefully these youngsters would keep them up. Their really are some very average over seas players in the PL, it needs to be address
Topspur1
the whole gerrard spout was damage limitation, probably feeling the shame of missing that sitter against russia and feels resonsible for the position england are in now-which he should. as far as your opponents spurring you on, maybe its time we started complimenting you boys! and see is that makes a difference!!
SMOKIEJACK
Another excellent article I would encourage you too read http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;jsessionid=4YPV0ZODHO0ABQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/sport/2007/11/16/sfnsmi116.xml&posted=true&_requestid=224532
Gooner_Vin
Cesky, I don't recall anywhere where I have said it was the responsibilty of the top clubs to produce players for the national side. Infact I made it quite clear that I blame the FA for poor decisions especially when it comes to appointing managers!! However the FA can only change certain aspects they cannot force clubs to play certain people, so they do need some sort of co-operation for it to work!! Personally speaking I don't give a damn about the national side, I think the standard of football at international level is awful, I have watched several of the top nations recently including Italy, France, Germany, England, Brazil, Argentina, Holland & the Czech Republic & to be honest they were all rubbish. Some may have one or two excellent players but the rest of the squads are made up of average players. Give me the premier league every day of the week, these nothing international games where you are supposed to support players you hate every other week doesn't work for me.
Ashburton Gooner
There is no real option to waiting for the FA to get it right Topspur. It's their team for heavens sake. Who else can put right the failure at grass roots level? There are many reasons for the current failings in English football - many of them political and sociological. Selling off school playing fields, lack of investment by the FA and the XBox generation all play their part amongst a multitude of other shortcomings. Giving money directly to smaller clubs that may end up relegated and having to close their investment in academies is like turning the tap on without putting the plug in. If what is important is the development of talent and the proper coaching of players then don't let the FA get away with abdicating responsibility to everyone else. If just half of the energy that goes into blaming clubs like Arsenal for not doing someone elses job for them were directed towards the FA then we might achieve something. At least we would be shooting at the right target.
Amos.
Sorry AG, i've read it again and your right.
Cesky
The Sun had Mourinho saying he has done more for the English National team than Wenger and had a list of English players purchased by Mourinho. What was ridiculous and seriously damaging to any credibility that article had, was that of the three English players Mourinho signed, SWP, Cashley Cow and Steve Sidewell, two were brought up at Arsenal.
Keplaz
Cesky, no problem mate!! I just didn't want anyone to think I actually support the FA, because until that organisation has been given a total overhaul they will forever be useless!!
Ashburton Gooner
England is the FA's team, but they do not produce the players and never have. I also believe that the PL has a responsibility to grass route football; football is dying in the lower league. We decide to bury our head in the sand, and negate our responsibility to these clubs. It doesn't matter how good the academies of PL clubs become, their will always be kids that are missed that smaller clubs pick up. Or some kid that is let go by their club that then goes on to become a top player, IMO to secure the future of our game we need to support lower league clubs. PL clubs are getting £30m a season from TV revenue, what difference would it make to them if it was only £29m and the £20m saved was pumped into academies of smaller clubs. The FA should insist that ever league club set up and run academy, and for their part they should run more coaching courses and encourage x players to give something back to the sport. In my view that's the only way we are going to secure the future of the sport we all love, and as for those who say they don't care international football. I guess they weren't watching the world cup and cheering for England
Topspur1
Couldn't agree more AG. Another FA balls up is the pointless Austria international, and now Owens injured for the Croatia game. Muppets! They are a bunch of headless chickens, and while McLaren's definitely not the man for the job, the sweet FA cannot get away any longer with letting the mannager (or us or foreign players) be the scapegoat.
Cesky
TS I don't fully disagree with what your saying, save that my point was why should it be the PL's responsibility when that is supposedly the FA's role. I would not be against each PL club having to give a what works out to a very small percentage of TV revenue for investment in lower league youth academies, because the upshot of that will hopefully be a bigger pool of talent from which more bright prospects might emerge (to be snapped up by the PL teams) but until the FA take the initiative, we are going to see a continuation of this downward spiral because the PL clubs appear to take the same view that it is not their responsibility, and they are within the rights to do so.
Cesky
The most damning indictment of the FA is surely the failure to build a national academy, why is this never picked up on by those who are so worried about the national game?
KaoTeK
The most damning indictment of the FA is surely the failure to build a national academy, why is this never picked up on by those who are so worried about the national squad
KaoTeK
You can say that again KaoTek! Oh - you already did! Tha fact that the FA is useless is a case for either making them better or taking the control of the England team away from them altogether. Unitl then we are just employing sticking plaster strategies to problems that go a lot deeper.
Amos.
It is in their right to adopt that stance, but some times we all need to do things that are not in our job description for the greater good. FA will spend the next 10yrs debating this problem, and the only thing we can agree on is they will still get it wrong
Topspur1
Ooops....soz for double post... *doh* is worth saying twice though :)
KaoTeK
We have no control over those idiots at the FA, but we can do our bit to create a bigger pool of talent to pick from. I want a PL with just the very best over seas players, like Kaka, Messi, Sniejder etc
Topspur1
I think we all want to see that Topspur, with the English talent being of the same standard, then we could truly claim to have the best league in the world, but until the genuine reasons for the lack of genuine talent coming through are addressed, no amount of quotas and scrape-goating will help....
KaoTeK
Look at all this reasoned debate....I'm so so proud!!!!!
Rocky7
I actually think a lot of fans are admiring the way Arsenal have improved this season. Before the season a lot of people thought you would struggle without Henry. You actually now look a better all round team without him!
dazza71
I see we are being linked with Diaby, I wonder if their is any truth in this one. Probably not! Probably just more tabloid drivel
Topspur1
I'd say clubs like Arsenal is killing the game. You're proving to everyone that the only way you can win is by playing with 99% foreign players.
Blue is the colour
So post-Mourinho you are abandoning the Chelski philosophy of 'its doesn't matter how you win' altogether now BITC? Killing the game is when you struggle to half fill your stadium for a CL match. When you manage to attract full gates every game you are clearly doing something right.
Amos.
I find this debate amusing more than ever for two reasons right now. 1) Is there an England fan out there who, in all honesty, wouldn't want Wenger as England manager tomorrow? And 2) Haven't England fans just been throwing themselves at the mercy of Israel this weekend?
Little Dutch
BITC is always good for a larf ;). Does anyone take you seriously mate?
prits
so BITC, what you are actually saying there is that you admit that the overall standard of English players are just not good enough? (if we are proving that playing with 99% foreign players is the only way to win...)
»»ARsene Knows««
Wingston75
Oh no, BITC), decides to have another crack. Is this knob never quit? He must feel so lonely having no friends at the vital chelski, well, more specific, having no friends at all. Why you think he hangs around here? I'm sure chelski does not rely on foreigners, oh wait, the without the likes of Drogba, Carvalho, Essien and Cech, you blues are useless. Cause a majority of your english players are overrated.
BMF
 

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