Arsenal's Input To The England Cause

No, no, no, you can't use facts! That totally flies in the face of my stupid, ignorant, nationalistic, media fed agenda! How dare you expose my ignorance and deconsrtuct my jingoistic bile like that!.....Sorry, I just wanted to see what it would be like to be a tabloid journalist for a second.

I know that facts aren't to everyone's liking, LD, why let that get in the way of a good old tired repeated airing of a tired old incorrect debate, eh? Flogging a dead horse springs to mind.

Before that, it was 'Arsene's Red Card Shame' for years, the press conveniently glossing over (ignoring) the facts that for a good two years, whilst they still trundled out the same tired old headlines, we had one of the best disciplinary records in the Premier League...
»»Arsene Knows««

not too many others jumping on this article are there...funny how statistics shut everyone else the fak up

The Patriot Police will now have to swap their Jackboots for Hush Puppies. Damned inconvenient things facts.

k_chelski... for a moment I was thinking its Spurs... LoL

am sorry about derby count , lol, Mathew Connoly is also supposed to be on the Arsenal English list. He was on the U-21 bench on Tuesday night against portugal.

VERY WELL DONE, Winger! This is exactly what we've been talking about, but this is well presented with numbers. If there's any logic left in those Arsenal doubters/haters ignorant enough to insist we don't give English players a chance, this should shut them up once and for all. (Sorry I'm ultimately optimistic.) THANKS!

Oh and also, they are gloating about Michael "I'm only good when I have Ledley King beside me" Dawson. Can't believe there are spud fans out there thinking Dawson is equal to Toure.

Hey my thanks also to ForestHillGooner! Just out of curiosity - you only counted the current England squad members, correct? I was just wondering if ManU only got 4, even including Wes Brown, cos Rooney's out injured? THey've got Ferdinand, Carrick and Hargreaves otherwise. Same as Chelsea, 5 doesn't included injured Terry, right?

the only one left out in this table (and FHG fixed it in the forum) is Lee Camp from Derby County - which changes sweet F.A.

Speaking of the kids, Walcott did quite well against Portugal tonight, after a stirring performance against Bulgaria a few days back. Happy to see he's growing much more aggressive and confident on the pitch - which he attributed to what Arsene's teaching. He does know. And yes, Matt Connolly was indeed part of the team, albeit an unused sub. Good start though.

What? You mean, they weren't cheering for Huddlestone? I'm shocked...

Lads. Top bombing, that is all I have to say.

Don't you mean, "when that changes, don't expect to read and hear more criticism"? And what about the senior players Arsenal have already contributed that have gone on to pastures new? The whole point of this article is that Arsenal are doing the most for the future of the England team.

Criticism will only come from people looking to give criticism. They will never change their views. Football can not be fixed over night, Wenger has taken his time in building facilites to produce only the highest standard of footballers, instead of the mediocre bull***** everyone else keeps producing.

I've been told it's Arsenes fault that blobbinson and lumpolard are crap

Looks like fat boy yiddo's dropped. About time.

They are all *****ers looking to take a *****. Fulhan doesn't contribute much to the England cause but no one complains.

oops...some crrction *Arsenal should be blamed the least. Ta

Unfortunately spursfan your comment was well reasoned articulate and (here's the kicker) not full of nationalistic nonsense, so the fact that you agree with Arsene's policy is conductive to me agreeing with you regarding your other point, football is a business, and to succeed you must win trophies. Duly noted about spurs having players in the England squad. Point being that how many of those 5-7 were produced by spurs, and how many are they producing for the future of the squad?

SF4E - You seem to be the anti-ES. And I can only agree with you regarding Sol Campell. As we still claim credit for players such as Sidwell, Bentley, Pennent, Cole, the credit for Sol Campbell rightly goes to Spurs. He came to us already a world class defender.

spursfan4eva...dont misquote me. I never said Sol Campbell was produces by Arsenal. I said he is an english ex-Arsenal player. We all know Sol's affiliation with Spurs.

Here it comes, cue Anti-Arsenal drivels

I'm sure people will hate on Arsenal, and blame AW of somehow being at fault for suggesting a stacked midfield, however I suspect AW based his opinion on actually fielding a midfield with talent, not a bunch of moping useless egos. I must say that bunch of overpaid underacheivers deserve the outcome today...yet the manager will take the fall tomorrow. The highlight of my day was a photo on ESPN showing a jubilant Eduardo celebrating with his Croatian teammates in the background of an in-focus Gerrard sulking to the tunnel trying so hard to hold back the tears. Classic! There were only two bright stars for England today...one plays on a last place team in the MLS, and the other rides the Liverpool bench....how sad.

I'm sure those anti-foreigners will find a way to blame Wenger for Carson's blunder and Bridge for playing that striker onside for Croatia's 2nd goal. I think Wenger should manage England part-time, while still managing Arsenal. Okay, here me out, England has talented young players, just look at their U21 squad. For the next World Cup, he will have Agbonlahor, Walcott and such who should be ready for that stage and more young English, he's grooming in the academy. I would be happy if Wenger gets rid some of those egos in the senior squad.

Anyway, Arsenal's injury list after international break: Flamini, Diaby and Hleb. Their injuries are not serious but will likely miss out on the Wigan match.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Dream come true for me!! I thought England were good enough to at least get a draw. What a bunch of ***** heads!!

WELL, last night clearly showed why Wenger doesn't invest in english talent, because there is no talent and they can't win a game at HOME, against a side that were good, but not world beaters. 0-2 down and then to come back 2-2 and still they couldn't hold that ! i have never seen an international team so badly.. and thats why wenger doesn't put the money into engliswh players, over hyped, over priced, over rated.

Rocky7, i am a realist and know that football is a multi million £ business nowadays and so sentiment doesn't come into which players are bought. We all want our respective teams to do well and win things so ultimately if you have 90% or 10% that are foreign you wont really care. Amos, i totally agree. There is not enough money being pushed into the training of young players by either clubs, the FA or the PL. I personally think that a good idea would be to pump cash into smaller clubs in the lower leagues to create top training establishments. The young players will be able to ply their trade in a lower league to pick up experience and then be purchased by a PL team. This would keep the smaller teams open and supply the PL with good home nation talent/young talent. Number14, you are correct that campbell is an ex arsenal player but in that same breath he is also an ex spurs player. Sidwell is an ex arsenal, reading and now a chelsea player. Just thought the statement was a little leading when you added players that came from your youth set up thats all.

Correction: I should have said more accurately that our record of contributing developed players to the full England Squad is no worse than many others. The club contributing most to the current 1st team squad is probably West Ham proving perhaps that an over reliance on English youth isn't the best way to prosper in club football.

I think the focus on the youth set up is changing for the better though. Arsene has set it up from scratch, and 10 years is too early to see results in what is essentially a long term project. The stats have been put up to evidence that Arsenal does contribute positively. If some of these 9 players eventually make it to the senior set up, some credit must go to Arsenal for schooling them well in the basics.

ES, how much have Robbo, Dawson, Jenas, etc. contributed to your current league position? And how much have they contributed to England? I mean, they aren't doing quite THAT well are they? If you want to keep giving chances to these gems - please feel free to do so. You can even take Matt Connolly and give him a couple of games - against your rivals at the bottom. We'll keep waiving from the top. After it is officially proven that England players are an embarrassment to the great fans they have, I think clubs should not be that proud of their contribution. Come on, bragging how you contribute to the greatest shower of **** ever to be called a "home team" at Wembley is not exactly what you want now. And Bent ALMOST scored again.

The issue is how do you go about improving the player stock in order for the national team to prosper in the future. We are talking about the team, administered, managed and controlled by the FA. While individual clubs continue to develop players for their own set up which may or may not benefit thr national team in the end it must require a coordinated approach organised by one body to improve firstly coaching and by progression players. Giving money ad hoc to smaller clubs without any control over how they spend it won't solve anything. The FA needs to build its own academy and needs to educate coaches in modern football encouraging innovation. As these coaches then find work throughout the whole football structure they hopefully will improve player development and the academy can then also select the most promising players from clubs without strong academy standards to improve their development. It isn't that we don't have enough players. Many of the countries that have qualfied for Euro 08 have populations a fraction of ours - Croatia has less than 5mn and can find a better pool of players - it is only about the quality we produce not the quantity.

Wingston, who stated that those players were anything other than bought by spurs?

NOBODY MENTIONED THAT CHELSKI BOUGHT PROMISING ENGLISH PLAYERS THAT WERE ABOUT TO BREAK INTO THE ENGLAND SENIOR TEAM (SCOT PARKER AND SIDWELL) AND PUT THEM ON THE BENCH FOREVER? IT IS A CRIME TO NOT "BORN" SOMEONE, BUT IT IS OKAY TO "KILL" SOMEONE IN FOOTBALL?

sf4e, EnglishSpur was commenting about however we gloss over the facts, we still contribute zilch to the full Eng squad, then reeled off those names. My point being that you may have them in your squad, but they are not spurs 'products', they were purchased. In that article, FHG talks of the yougn english players bubbling under the surface who represent england at youth levels. If you choose to sign them, fair enough, your club's choice, but they came as 18-19+ (not sure how old lennon was when he signed...), so in truth by the time they joined you, they were pretty much there already, not developed youth...
»»Arsene Knows««

My question to the FA would be why the england u21 squad has performed so well over several years now & yet the first choice national side is a pile of s***. You have to bear in mind that the players representing England last night came through youth academies & most of them performed well at one time or another for England U21's. It seems to me the coaching at a lower level isn't the problem because the england youth set up works well, the problem comes when these younger players actually make it into their clubs first team, at that point the players appear to go backwards not forwards. There seems to be only a handful of managers that have the quality of staff available to move the youngsters forward & thats the problem which needs addressing...........Now for a crazy idea, how about the team that finishes bottom of the league gets the most (prize) money & the top the least. That way the teams at the bottom get a chance of improving over a period of time (even though they would still be relegated). The teams at the top don't need the cash anywhere near as much as the teams at the bottom & tv revenue wouldn't change, just the prize money. It means a team like Derby could be in line for a 50 million windfall at the end of the season & this would allow them to play more youngsters than they can currently chance because relegation wouldn't be such an issue. It would also make the league much more competitive in future years.

Ashburton gooner, that is a very very good idea but unfortunately it would never happen as any team would want to get as much money as possible. I do agree with what you have said though. There is a lack of top class coaches and managers but i do also think that there is a lack of top class young home grown players and that is why it is so expensive to buy an english ect player. Think we should just make people play football on skegness beach and try to adopt some of the brazil skills :-) Wingston75, i see what you mean now. Lennon was bought when he was 17 so even though he had been through some coaching ect i still think a vast amount of time has been put into his development as he was and still is so young. So with him i would say we have helped to produce him. It is all a matter of opinion though of course. At the end of the day it is a very interesting debate but like i said earlier it all comes down to money. If you can buy gerard for £30 million or get someone exactly the same as him for £18 - £20 million who would you go for!?!? simple business sense and nothing to do with nationality

You can twist facts though!!

Wingston75 I find it interesting that you point out the list of players that were bought by Spurs but not developed, but you neglect to mention the players that were brought in by Gooners but not developed by them. How many of your current 1st team were developed by yourself? Would be curious to see who they are, as I honestly can't think of one with the exception of possibly Clichy, and I'm not too sure how old he was when you brought him in.

G4L, in answer to your question..... Huddlestone has not been called up to the senior squad yet so has not contributed there but has impressed in the u21's. Defoe i thought did well when he came on and even "won" the penalty. King has been injured for most of the england games this qualifier but when fit he is an awesome player for both club and country. Lennon is another that has been injured and only just come back but when he plays he is good. Still has things to learn but is only 19. Robbo even though he has been going through a bad bit of form for 18 months still managed to keep 9 clean sheets in the qualifying games so has contributed. Dawson has 1 or 2 caps and that is it so not really contributed yet. I agree that the money all players are paid is obscene but that will not change for a long time. I personally thought crouch and the subs were the only players to play well last night.

Ashburton, it's a good point you make mate, but if you look at this article in the telegraph, you'll see Richard Scudamore say that the top team in the Prem will earn around £50m, whilst the bottom around £30m - due to the increase in rights and the new Sky money. This is an astonishing rise from even the 05/06 season when Chelsea won the Prem and earned 'only' £9.7m.... That's a 5 fold increase in 2 years....!!!! Telegraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/18/nfootie18.xml

spursfan4eva...thank you for the valid point you just made. Just as you said would you rather have a 150,000 Kolo Toure or a 30m Rio Ferdinand, a 35m Rooney or a 2.5m Van Persie, a 500,000 Fabregas over....except you are Chelsea/Manu and dont give a damn about developing youth the answer is no. Therein lies the dillema....this is one of the things that has pushed out english players from Arsenal....Can you imagine that Theo Walcott is costlier than Thiery Henry (or almost the same cost) and that a player like Agbolanhor could cost as much as 15m...when you can get cheaper and better in brazil...or an Eboue from Africa for 3m...there is a ray of hope however, the current crop of under 21 players in england looks promising. But they still have to FIGHT for their place because the clubs are investments and do not belong to the nation. Clubs like Manu and Chelsea have consistently "bought" their successes (in varying degrees though) and I would actually blame them for the stupidly increasing costs of players - not just english players....some blame will go to a club that buys a Bent for 16m - HE ISNT WORTH IT.....finally....Ashburton Gooner, what you are proposing is impracticable the world doesnt work like that - you cant reward failure. the way forward is for the FA to develop a proper youth academy and not spend 1 billion on a stupid Wembley stadium....also to stop appointing INEPT coaches like McLaren. This is a good wake up call the way I see it....if we do the right things in four yrs we can reap the benefits. I dare make a prediction here - in 4-6 years we will look back and see how much Wenger has done for english football...not just in the quality we all see...but in the future crop of english players he is presently grooming - but hey - they have to FIGHT FOR THE SHIRT - ask Clichy he will tell them how, ask Flamini.....we are always looking for favors..last week we were looking to Israel for a MASSIVE favor - and they obliged...yesterday we EXPECTED Croatia to roll over and play dead...IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY.....look at countries succeEding --Italy - Grit and backbone examplified with imbued training from an early age...also take a look at all the african players making it into the french team - they FIGHT for it and beat out french nationals... Its not your right to wear the Arsenal jersey because you are English - Arsenal is a bussiness venture and is not owned by England. Only a fool would choose Hoyte over Sagna, Bentley over Hleb or Pires...or a mediocre team....and when an Ashely Cole decides to move over a stupid squabble...DONT BLAME ARSENE FOR NOT KISSING HIS ASS AND TREATING HIM LIKE A KING.

My point is, that if the clubs choose to spend that money on foreign players (most of the clubs) and over inflated wages (West Ham) rather than investing large chunks like Arsenal are in youth development (10 training pitches in London Colney - each one the exact dimensions of Emirates, 11 v 11 on half size pitches, all the kids learning to pass and move constantly) and not only looking for instant success/survival then maybe the English national team would be in better shape. I don't blame Arsenal at all. We've done more than any club to ensure infrastructure is inplace to develop quality English players and over the next couple of years it will bear fruit. However, there's too many clubs who take this windfall and use it to buy new stadiums to generate even more money and huge numbers of foreign players. I think the FA should have put conditions on this windfall with a certain percentage being forced to be spent on youth development facilities.

number14, my point exactly. I think it is a shame that there aren't more english or home nation players in the arsenal team but it is a business and if you can get fabregas for £1 million (example) but gerard for £30 million then i know who will be picked. It is just simple logic. However i do think the answer is in putting money into coaching and academy's as if you produce more top class young players then the price of english players drops as there are more out there. Yes Bent cost more than i would have liked but i dont think he was over priced when you look at the current market. He is a top top player and once spurs are up and running he will show his worth. He also has youth on his side. I just think all of this highlights even more that football is a money orientated sport nowadays and will remain so

spursfan4eva...well i hope for englands sake that spurs investment on Bent will pay off........michael105uk those are some interesting news there - if it is all true.

G4L, you asked about each players contribution so i answer you. The teams that we got clean sheets against in this qualifying section may not be of much note but a clean sheet is a clean sheet. The easiest person to blame is always the keeper remember. As for King, i never said he didnt participate in the qualifiers. I just said that he had missed many games. I stated defoe's contribution last night and no other contribution he has made as he tends to be more of a squad player. Dawson has had a bad start to the season but last year he was immense and as i am a spurs fan i should know as i do get to see him play. As for Lennon, becks will retire soon and doesn't play enough to have 90 mins on the pitch and as for swp. I dont think swp is anything special and tends to run down blind alleys. If you see anything of Lennon in the first 45 odd games for spurs last year he was brilliant and then burnt out. This season he has been injured so think you are being very harsh on him. I did however state he has things he needs to learn but he is 19 and has time on his side. Doubts over bent are a bit strange when he has scored goals in every team he has played. He has hardly started for us but is starting to look good when he has come on. Anyway, i didnt think this discussion was about spurs? i thought it was about youth players coming through and the state of the english game?

I imagine, Little Dutch, that Aliksander Hleb is a proud Belorussian who is delighted to turn out and represent his nation and it means slightly more on a personal level than playing for a club who might choose to sell him 2 years into the future. By playing in a group with fewer 'big teams' will undoubtedly raise the prospect of Belarus qualifying which may have the effect of contributing more to their beleaguered coffers. Furthermore, it has often been sport which has helped open the eyes of people living under oppresive regimes, and I applaud Hleb for actually taking the opportunity to play for pride rather than just collect his £70K per week. And a team which beats the Netherlands clearly is moving away from receiving thrashings.

Why would you want to lay claim to be providing your fair share of players for the biggest underachieving football nation in Europe? Seriously? It's nothing to be proud of.

TDBhoy, I'm not proud of the English first team, but I am proud of the U21's and the praise Theo receives - the match the other night in Portugal - his performance was so good even the Portuguese fans were singing his name.

number14, its not about rewarding failure, its about trying to get more quality home grown players into the premiership & also making the premiership more competitive as a whole. The NFL works on a similar principle (albeit draft picks & not money), the lowest ranking team get to pick first, so in theory it should make them more competitve over a period of years. Us Arsenal fans are lucky because we know that the club will always be challenging for top honours (I don't mean every season but over time we will always be around the elite clubs), other fans aren't so lucky. I don't have any sympathy for poorly run clubs, but I do have sympathy for smaller teams in areas that can't attract the sort of support the big clubs get!!

G4L, i think at the moment swp is pushing lennon but i dont think swp's has enough in his locker to realistically keep lennon out of any team. As for walcott, i dont think he is even anywhere near lennon personally. Yes he is going to be a good player but he is not a winger. I think that wenger is just trying to develop him into a player that can take on and run past players just like henry was able to do. Of course this is all just opinion and it may turn out that walcott becomes the best winger in the world but i very much doubt it. The person i think that will push lennon is ashley young at villa as he can play left or right side of midfield and is a real rising star. Pennant i wont even comment about

*wondering that is.

time will tell sf4e. anyway, thanks for a goodhearted debate.

Wingers, will ANYONE answer that?!

ES, amen to the first part, skeptical over Italy comments. They won the WC, yes (after a while) - but their club football and organization... you wish you'd never wished that. 70%+ italians, but only the teams that have a huge international contingent are/have been successful in Europe: AC Milan, Inter Milan, Roma, Juventus, maybe even Lazio. The rest are p1$$ poor. Plus, due to their overly national(istic) stances and other social and sociological issues - Italian football is renown for the following: corruption, bribes, crime related organizations, political overinvolvement in sports, the ultras of different types (nazi and Mussolini, socialist/communist followers), hooligans, murders, police brutality... See my point?

Thank you G4L and Amos....thats how to use statistics. 70% + italians in the Italian league doesnt say much.....the top teams in Italy are staffed similarly to ours....with respect to the quota of nationals. The way the Italians operate, they keep a core of very good players for a long period and replenish the squad gradually....Gattuso, Inzaghi etc...have been in reckoning for a long time. The french are different...more than 50% of their players are actaully foreigners...mostly Africans - who compete with actual frenchmen for places in the national team. Here in England I think we get carried away by media hype and fame and we easily forget the job...the Pennants, Cole's want to be superstars...teh Owens are made of glass. I hope the crop of talent coming through can keep grounded.

Aha, and ACMilan won the champions league last season with 7 Italians in the starting XI and 11 in the overall 18

Anyone notice how Jermain Defoe and Steven Gerrard's sickening dives haven't been mentioned today? Give either of them a French surname and an alice band and voila! You've got an outrage.

Little dutch, to be honest mate i didnt really see defoe dive around. He got the penalty through a tug on his shirt and arm on him. It was a very soft penalty but defoe wasn't rolling around the floor and even though it was soft it was a penalty all the same. The only real players that played well were the subs and i do feel sorry for becks as that is ultimately the end of his international career. The team were a disgrace and thank god i didnt pay like £40 for a ticket to watch that rubbish

I agree with you LD but from all the replays i have seen the defender tugged defoes shirt and then put his arm on him. Defoe didnt make a meal of it and didnt roll around so wasn't actively looking for a penalty as he was genuinely going for the ball and had beaten the defender hands down. The defender knew this hence the shirt pull and arm on defoe. It was a soft penalty dont get me wrong but i in no way think defoe play acted or dived

If anyone is still interested in this topic they can check out these two excellent articles: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2899454,00.html. This is from Jamie Redknap......and also this one: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2899637,00.html very excellent . According to Craig Johnson - "Managers aren't stupid. They are bringing foreign players he because they are better than their English counterparts. The kids aren't good enough and that shows you how badly things have been mismanaged by the FA for many, many years.....". You all have a fun weekend.

Twas William Blake who said, "it is by universal misunderstanding that we agree. If we stopped to listen to each other, there would be no chance that we'd ever agree."

TDBhoy "Why would you want to lay claim to be providing your fair share of players for the biggest underachieving football nation in Europe? Seriously? It's nothing to be proud of." can't agree more.. as an Arsenal fan, i am proud that there is not even one Arsenal player in the current England senior team.