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Arsenal's Input To The England Cause

In what has become a tired debate, the 'Arsenal not being English' brigade continue to lambast our club for not supplying any english players for the national team.

Whilst there may be no members of the Arsenal team in the full England squad, Arsenal have of course given the national side Ashley Cole and David Bentley, who have both moved on to pastures new.

But Vital Arsenal forum member ForestHillGooner has looked into exactly what Arsenal do for England throughout the various age groups, and has come up with some interesting stats regarding the breakdown of exactly how many players are supplied to England, throughout the various age levels, and has presented them in easy-to-digest league formats.

In Arsenal's case, the players who represent England are:

Justin Hoyte
Theo Walcott
Kieran Gibbs
Henri Lansbury
Rhys Murphy
Jay Thomas
Gavin Hoyte
Sam Byles
Emmanuel Frimpong

But without further ado, over to ForestHillGooner...

--------

I know some people on this forum have already mentioned the contribution of Arsenal to the English Youth System. I wanted to see how the actual stats added up. Below is a table showing all of the Premier League clubs and just how much they are currently providing towards the future of the English Senior Team.

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By wingston at 2007-11-20

As you can see there are some surprises in there, not least considering Steven Gerrard's recent comments when in fact Liverpool are joint 17th!

In an attempt to show an unbiased view I have then included the figures for the senior team players to see how this affects the numbers.

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By wingston at 2007-11-20

A number of interesting observations;

1. England Senior Team contains no regular Arsenal players and the team underperforms.

2. The stats show that Arsenal is doing more than any other club in the Premiership to contribute new players to refresh the current crop of underperforming players. Remember these new players all play in the much respected Wenger style, which runs through-out all levels at Arsenal.

3. Of Man Utd's 4 Senior players they only developed 1 through their youth systems whilst they purchased the other 3. That home grown player is Wes Brown.

4. Of Chelsea's 5 Senior players they developed 1 (John Terry) through their youth systems.

5. Of T*ttenham's 2 Senior players they developed 0 (zero) through their youth systems.

6. Of Liverpool's 3 Senior players they developed 1 through their youth systems whilst they purchased the other 2. That home grown player is Steven Gerrard.

So I ask why is all this finger pointing exclusively at Arsenal?

Let the informed debate continue...........

Article submitted by ForestHillGooner




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The Journalist

Writer: Wingston Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Tuesday November 20 2007

Time: 9:37PM

Your Comments

No, no, no, you can't use facts! That totally flies in the face of my stupid, ignorant, nationalistic, media fed agenda! How dare you expose my ignorance and deconsrtuct my jingoistic bile like that!.....Sorry, I just wanted to see what it would be like to be a tabloid journalist for a second.
Little Dutch
Apologies for the delayed airing of this article, I intended to have it up on sunday, but yours truly, the 'gumbo' of the internet world, coudlnt get the tables to resemble anything other than a barbled mess of figures (tabs and spaces don't get on well with the internet), until G4L kindly stated the blindingly obvious and said 'why don't you insert them as graphics?'

I doff my cap to you, sir!
»»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
I know that facts aren't to everyone's liking, LD, why let that get in the way of a good old tired repeated airing of a tired old incorrect debate, eh? Flogging a dead horse springs to mind.

Before that, it was 'Arsene's Red Card Shame' for years, the press conveniently glossing over (ignoring) the facts that for a good two years, whilst they still trundled out the same tired old headlines, we had one of the best disciplinary records in the Premier League...
»»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Cant wait to see TT and ES try to argue that this doesnt prove anything.
gunnerkid107
not too many others jumping on this article are there...funny how statistics shut everyone else the fak up
anonymous
nice touch to the statistics, tottenham called spuds , lol. It really catched.
k_chelski
The Patriot Police will now have to swap their Jackboots for Hush Puppies. Damned inconvenient things facts.
Amos.
derby county are the real culprits of english football. Unfortunately no one has found them out yet. Englishspur, here is your answer.
49ers
k_chelski... for a moment I was thinking its Spurs... LoL
KnightOfARSENAL
To be fair to Derby, not that it changes much, ForestHillGooner did subsequently update the charts to include Lee Camp of Derby in the U21 squad. The revised charts are posted in the Debate & Analysis forum.
Amos.
am sorry about derby count , lol, Mathew Connoly is also supposed to be on the Arsenal English list. He was on the U-21 bench on Tuesday night against portugal.
49ers
I bet Matty didnt show up on the stats because he is with another club on loan.
gunnerkid107
VERY WELL DONE, Winger! This is exactly what we've been talking about, but this is well presented with numbers. If there's any logic left in those Arsenal doubters/haters ignorant enough to insist we don't give English players a chance, this should shut them up once and for all. (Sorry I'm ultimately optimistic.) THANKS!
Louisa
Excellent article, guys. Did anyone see over at vital spuds where they are gloating about how they have players like Huddlestone, Jenas, Robinson and Routledge that represents England. Well, Huddlestone and Routledge don't have the talent to be senior players for England, especially Routledge since he can't get a game for the spuds, Jenas will only play for England on friendlies, while the fat kid in goal, will only stay England's #1 keeper because McClaren don't have the balls to drop him and go with a better, inform keeper. This is why England is struggling, because they are bring up mediocre players like the spuds listed and think they are actual any good.
BMF
Oh and also, they are gloating about Michael "I'm only good when I have Ledley King beside me" Dawson. Can't believe there are spud fans out there thinking Dawson is equal to Toure.
BMF
this article is brilliant, like really brilliant. You should present this more...i dont kno how but get it seen this really proves something and will make people think.
MikeLebo
Hey my thanks also to ForestHillGooner! Just out of curiosity - you only counted the current England squad members, correct? I was just wondering if ManU only got 4, even including Wes Brown, cos Rooney's out injured? THey've got Ferdinand, Carrick and Hargreaves otherwise. Same as Chelsea, 5 doesn't included injured Terry, right?
Louisa
anything to help Wingers! Still you can sense the class touches of your humble self as kevin there observed. Hats off to FHG for collecting the stats and putting them together. Now where are the 'usual suspects'?
G4L
the only one left out in this table (and FHG fixed it in the forum) is Lee Camp from Derby County - which changes sweet F.A.
G4L
Not one of them show up, what a *****in surprise. I suppose niko humiliated TT to much when he took that article from Vital Chelski's forum and posted it over here.
Ozi Gooner
Speaking of the kids, Walcott did quite well against Portugal tonight, after a stirring performance against Bulgaria a few days back. Happy to see he's growing much more aggressive and confident on the pitch - which he attributed to what Arsene's teaching. He does know. And yes, Matt Connolly was indeed part of the team, albeit an unused sub. Good start though.
Louisa
Wow, even the Portugal fans chanted "Theo, Theo"! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article2911611.ece
Louisa
What? You mean, they weren't cheering for Huddlestone? I'm shocked...
BMF
What no PhoneyTime? No ES?? There's a ******** surprise. Don't worry fella's, I'll sticky this article so it isn't going anywhere soon!!! Truly excellent work Wingers and ForestHill.
Rocky7
Lads. Top bombing, that is all I have to say.
Gunnerman
Very well researched piece, but it all comes down to 1 statistic, doesn't it? Number of senior squad players, zero. Until that changes expect to read and hear more criticism.
Westl
Don't you mean, "when that changes, don't expect to read and hear more criticism"? And what about the senior players Arsenal have already contributed that have gone on to pastures new? The whole point of this article is that Arsenal are doing the most for the future of the England team.
Gunnerman
It only comes down to 1 statistic in the minds of the hopelessly ignorant and there's not much you can do about them.
Amos.
Criticism will only come from people looking to give criticism. They will never change their views. Football can not be fixed over night, Wenger has taken his time in building facilites to produce only the highest standard of footballers, instead of the mediocre bull***** everyone else keeps producing.
Rocky7
Shocking that ES & TT seem to have done the disappearing act for this article. Good work FHG.
prits
I've been told it's Arsenes fault that blobbinson and lumpolard are crap
bseymour
ENGLISH SPURS...where the hell are u? we all await your reply....may i add to this well written article. There are more english ex-Arsenal players in the PL than any other of the big 4- Bently, Pennant, Sidwell, Upson, Ashely Cole, Sol Campbell, Harper etc.
number14
Looks like fat boy yiddo's dropped. About time.
AFC85Lew
Very busy site this, gets on average 50 comments per article, article on Wenger backing England, on Vital Arsenal, into the fourth hour gone no comments, here or on the forum. Patriots one and all. <> Tonytime Just thought I'd point out Tonytime's comment on the last Eng-er-land thread.
Little Dutch
They are all *****ers looking to take a *****. Fulhan doesn't contribute much to the England cause but no one complains.
Gaga
Gaga you are right. No one complains about Fulham because they are not a threat to anyone. Fergie is complaining because Wenger is the main threat to his title dreams this season...its so nasty and unfortunate that someone of his standing could be so stupid and childish. I'm sure he knows these facts. In summary if there is a decline for the demise of english talent, Arsenal should not be blamed the least. Has anyone seen EnglishSpurs yet...I hope you have read this article. What do you think? I am particularly interested because we had a series of "talk" on this topic on another forum.
number14
oops...some crrction *Arsenal should be blamed the least. Ta
number14
A very interesting article and a pretty good read i must admit. I for one dont really care about other teams having english players or not. It would be nice that clubs have players from home nations in their team but there is not enough good players that are either english, welsh, scotish or irish to go around and the fact is football is a business nowadays and people are here to win and nothing else. So i dont blame arsenal or any other club trying to get the best players they possibly can. I do however think the stat that spurs have 2 seniour players isn't really a true reflection on the fact we regularly have between 5-7 players in the england squad. Just thought i would point that one out. And number 14, sol campbell may well have played for you but he was produced by spurs so i dont really think you could take credit for him either. All in all a very interesting read and now i will wait for your replies as i see you have been waiting for a spurs fan to comment or actually hoping it would be ES or TT
spursfan4eva
Unfortunately spursfan your comment was well reasoned articulate and (here's the kicker) not full of nationalistic nonsense, so the fact that you agree with Arsene's policy is conductive to me agreeing with you regarding your other point, football is a business, and to succeed you must win trophies. Duly noted about spurs having players in the England squad. Point being that how many of those 5-7 were produced by spurs, and how many are they producing for the future of the squad?
Gunnerman
Gunnerman, to answer your question. My own opinion is that spurs produced none of those players as they joined on average at 18. Some people would argue that buying a player so young means you can develop them into a top player but i think it is more the case that they should come from your youth set up. And to answer your second question i will just point you in the direction of the table above. Spurs tend to have a policy of buying good young english players and developing them. This can be seen in the lennon, dawson and huddlestone examples. They are not fully developed yet and have things to learn but they are young. As a business i can see the sense in paying £1 million for lennon and not having an academy for 12-15 year olds but that is a businessmans perspective and not a football fans one. Dont get me wrong, in an ideal world each PL team would have 4-5 good home nation players in it but this is not an ideal world and there are other factors that come into play with football ie money and the fact there is not enough good home nation players to go around.
spursfan4eva
SF4E - You seem to be the anti-ES. And I can only agree with you regarding Sol Campell. As we still claim credit for players such as Sidwell, Bentley, Pennent, Cole, the credit for Sol Campbell rightly goes to Spurs. He came to us already a world class defender.
Rocky7
I would agree that if you buy a player at around 18 then he would in all likelyhood be on a full professional contract so claiming him as a product of the youth system is misleading. For this reason I wouldn't claim Matthew Upson as an Arsenal product, though schooled at the club, whereas David Bentley and Steve Sidwell are. The bottom line though is that Arsenal have been training young english players for a few years and their academy is much further developed than many others.
Amos.
spursfan4eva...dont misquote me. I never said Sol Campbell was produces by Arsenal. I said he is an english ex-Arsenal player. We all know Sol's affiliation with Spurs.
number14
o-oh we're in trouble now folks, 2-3 England's out, wait for the anti-Arsenal brigade
JakeB
Here it comes, cue Anti-Arsenal drivels
49ers
Apparently, football is staying home next summer.
G4L
I'm sure people will hate on Arsenal, and blame AW of somehow being at fault for suggesting a stacked midfield, however I suspect AW based his opinion on actually fielding a midfield with talent, not a bunch of moping useless egos. I must say that bunch of overpaid underacheivers deserve the outcome today...yet the manager will take the fall tomorrow. The highlight of my day was a photo on ESPN showing a jubilant Eduardo celebrating with his Croatian teammates in the background of an in-focus Gerrard sulking to the tunnel trying so hard to hold back the tears. Classic! There were only two bright stars for England today...one plays on a last place team in the MLS, and the other rides the Liverpool bench....how sad.
SUX2BU
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN, CAUSE ENGLAND IS CRAP!!! ENGLAND DON'T DESERVE TO QUALIFY FOR EURO IF YOU LET IN 3 GOALS AT HOME!!! Anyway, let the "blame the foreigners in English football!!!" I swear, if Arsenal was languishing in middle table, no one would be talking about getting rid of foreigners. About the match, how sweet was Dudu's pass to setup the 2nd goal for Croatia? England need more players who can do that instead of players who hoff the ball most of the time i.e. Lumphard, Gerrard and Beckham.
BMF
I'm sure those anti-foreigners will find a way to blame Wenger for Carson's blunder and Bridge for playing that striker onside for Croatia's 2nd goal. I think Wenger should manage England part-time, while still managing Arsenal. Okay, here me out, England has talented young players, just look at their U21 squad. For the next World Cup, he will have Agbonlahor, Walcott and such who should be ready for that stage and more young English, he's grooming in the academy. I would be happy if Wenger gets rid some of those egos in the senior squad.
BMF
I'm seriously considering sending my CV of all my Football Manager achievements in to the FA tomorrow following that display tonight!! I too am waiting for the backlash, but armed with this articles ammo, my personal vendetta against the Chelsea fan giving it large about his team and the 'how do u feel not having any Arsenal players in the England team' argument... which my reply is 'dont ******** care!'
itsup4grabsnow
Anyway, Arsenal's injury list after international break: Flamini, Diaby and Hleb. Their injuries are not serious but will likely miss out on the Wigan match.
BMF
SUX2B ur an effin embarassment, support whatvever club's country u come from. stop associating urself with our historical club. anyway, tonight was a national disgrace, the lot of em should be in effin stocks just outside the Clink in Southwark for me to chuck veggies etc at them, what a effin joke, if a club with and 'English Spine' wins the league this yr boys we're in trouble
AFC85Lew
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Dream come true for me!! I thought England were good enough to at least get a draw. What a bunch of ***** heads!!
WouldYouBelieveIt?!
AFC85....not quite sure I get how it is that you feel I'm an "effin embarrassment" when you virtually reiterate my same sentiments about the poor England performance shown earlier today. Perhaps you should read before you spout misdirected accusations from the hole under your nose. We all support the same club here...seems a little contradictory that you virtually tell me I can't associate myself with Arsenal FC because I don't happen to live in England, especially considering the discussions on these boards (and this particular thread) over the past week...shame.
SUX2BU
WELL, last night clearly showed why Wenger doesn't invest in english talent, because there is no talent and they can't win a game at HOME, against a side that were good, but not world beaters. 0-2 down and then to come back 2-2 and still they couldn't hold that ! i have never seen an international team so badly.. and thats why wenger doesn't put the money into engliswh players, over hyped, over priced, over rated.
PUREGOLD
Thanks for the concern guys, I was at the hospital with my son - so so sorry if you think you take priority ......... A question? Are the stats from the lastest squads announced or of all the players called up over the last 12months? My knowledge of youth squads is they frequently call up a much wider range of players than the senior teams and squads from game to game can differ greatly................................I think the big problem here though, is you are looking at age groups. How many of these guys will ever be given an opportunity in the first team in the Premiership? Take Matt Connolly. He is only getting experience at Colchester, which means any good skills he learns at Arsenal are lost as he plays for team trying to gain promotion and reducing their game plan to the lowest common denominator. You are not contributing more players to the senior playing pool as hardly any of them get senior playing experience - you don't contibute any starters to the full England team, because you don't have any regular England starters in your side - no matter how you gloss it over,if you never give any of those 9 you mention the chance to gain regular game experience on matchday with your first team, all of the statistics you produce are irrelevant - in recent England squads Spurs have contributed Robbo, King, Dawson, Jenas, LEnnon, Defoe, Bent, and Gardner have been called up = 8 not 2 ...... Regarding Derby they are considered to have a decent youth structure and actually do give first team games to the likes of Tom Huddlestone, Lee Camp, Lee Grant, Lee Holmes, Giles Barnes etc ... clearly it helps to be called 'Lee' though :)
EnglishSpur
Rocky7, i am a realist and know that football is a multi million £ business nowadays and so sentiment doesn't come into which players are bought. We all want our respective teams to do well and win things so ultimately if you have 90% or 10% that are foreign you wont really care. Amos, i totally agree. There is not enough money being pushed into the training of young players by either clubs, the FA or the PL. I personally think that a good idea would be to pump cash into smaller clubs in the lower leagues to create top training establishments. The young players will be able to ply their trade in a lower league to pick up experience and then be purchased by a PL team. This would keep the smaller teams open and supply the PL with good home nation talent/young talent. Number14, you are correct that campbell is an ex arsenal player but in that same breath he is also an ex spurs player. Sidwell is an ex arsenal, reading and now a chelsea player. Just thought the statement was a little leading when you added players that came from your youth set up thats all.
spursfan4eva
Our record of contributing developed players to the full England Squad is no worse than anyone elses. Few of the current England squad are at the clubs that developed them. We have Ashley Cole, Spuds have Campbell. Matt Connolly is one example but you could also look to Bentley and Sidwell. Whether the 9 are eventually good enough to play for Arsenal or not is one thing but at the lower level demanded of international football they may well still make it even if they are not playing for us.
Amos.
Correction: I should have said more accurately that our record of contributing developed players to the full England Squad is no worse than many others. The club contributing most to the current 1st team squad is probably West Ham proving perhaps that an over reliance on English youth isn't the best way to prosper in club football.
Amos.
Amos, i think the saying you get out what you put in is very ture in this situation. PL clubs dont put enough into youth set ups and so they are just getting out what they have put in. At the end of the day it is all about money and time. I think the best youth set up that was around in my opinion was the one at crewe alexandra as they developed several top players but even that has dried up somewhat
spursfan4eva
I think the focus on the youth set up is changing for the better though. Arsene has set it up from scratch, and 10 years is too early to see results in what is essentially a long term project. The stats have been put up to evidence that Arsenal does contribute positively. If some of these 9 players eventually make it to the senior set up, some credit must go to Arsenal for schooling them well in the basics.
prits
Its apparent that this arguement will go on for a very very LONG time. I would like to add my little bit today after which I will try not to say anymore about this subject matter. We have been knocked out of the euro - frankly, good riddance to bad rubbish- WE DIDNT DESERVE IT. First blame goes to the FA - for appointing Macca, a coach who had no pedigree, second to Macca, well what more can I say - he was rubbish - i mean Carson in the goal...at this time. And lastly to an over-hyped and over-payed english team with no spine......the FA needs to rethink their approach to the development of football in this country. Lets face it guys, as a country we are going SOFT. My point remains this - IN THIS BUSSINESS OF APPORTIONING BLAME FOR THE DEMISE OF ENGLISH TALENT, ARSENAL IS NOT TO BLAME....or at least - WE ARE ALL TO BLAME AND LARGER CHUNKS OF THE BLAME SHOULD GO ELSEWHERE - not towards Arsene/Arsenal.....FINALLY, When I listed Campbell, i was merely listing him as a player who had worn the Arsenal shirt and could still have been wearing it under different circumstances thats all....that goes for Ashely Cole...a world class player (who is presently fading IF YOU TAKE A CLOSE LOOK - under the wrong type of playing system) who might still have been an Arsenal player under different circumstances.... Its a nice list you have drawn up ES - but take a good look at the list and you see a bunch of players that wouldnt make it into a national team in a lot of countries. Jennas, Lennon, Dawson, Robbo...spare me. These dudes are the very reason why spurs is such a mediocre team - and that is not an insult, ITS FACT. I will TRY to hold my tongue and not contribute to this topic anymore. Please guys - lets ALL take an unbiased look at the facts and figures. There is adequate potential in this country to make it to the top...i only hope the FA will wake up from its ineptitude and do the right things. TA
number14
ES, how much have Robbo, Dawson, Jenas, etc. contributed to your current league position? And how much have they contributed to England? I mean, they aren't doing quite THAT well are they? If you want to keep giving chances to these gems - please feel free to do so. You can even take Matt Connolly and give him a couple of games - against your rivals at the bottom. We'll keep waiving from the top. After it is officially proven that England players are an embarrassment to the great fans they have, I think clubs should not be that proud of their contribution. Come on, bragging how you contribute to the greatest shower of **** ever to be called a "home team" at Wembley is not exactly what you want now. And Bent ALMOST scored again.
G4L
number14, i agree with you that the blame should not solely be on arsenal. It is every club that is at fault. The FA are a disgrace as well as McClaren. You are totally spot on with what you say about training schools ect. However i do disagree with what you say about Lennon and Dawson. Lennon has been injured and only just returned. Although he has much to learn he is still very young and i am certain most teams would have him off spurs. Dawson was a rock for us last year but has started poorly along with many other spurs players this year so again i am sure many teams would take him including top 4 teams. Robbo has been poor for 18 months now but before that was in the top 3 keepers in the PL so has the potential to get back there. G4L, i agree the england players were hocking last night and should hang their heads in shame as england should have won that group but we got what we deserved as they simply were not good enough. I thought all the subs played well though and to say anything about bent is a tad harsh as i thought to get himself into the position to be able to score was very impressive alone. Not many players would have been able to do that. Ultimately the FA need to act and pump some of the vast amounts of money they have into grass routes and training schools to develop talent
spursfan4eva
The issue is how do you go about improving the player stock in order for the national team to prosper in the future. We are talking about the team, administered, managed and controlled by the FA. While individual clubs continue to develop players for their own set up which may or may not benefit thr national team in the end it must require a coordinated approach organised by one body to improve firstly coaching and by progression players. Giving money ad hoc to smaller clubs without any control over how they spend it won't solve anything. The FA needs to build its own academy and needs to educate coaches in modern football encouraging innovation. As these coaches then find work throughout the whole football structure they hopefully will improve player development and the academy can then also select the most promising players from clubs without strong academy standards to improve their development. It isn't that we don't have enough players. Many of the countries that have qualfied for Euro 08 have populations a fraction of ours - Croatia has less than 5mn and can find a better pool of players - it is only about the quality we produce not the quantity.
Amos.
Robbo, Dawson, Jenas, Lennon, Defoe, Bent & Huddlestone were not developed by spurs. Spuds purchased them rather than nurturing them.
»»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Wingston, who stated that those players were anything other than bought by spurs?
spursfan4eva
I think there is little value in developing players at youth level if they are not given an opportunity to display their skills in the 1st team - it is a wasted exercise. I have an article I hope will be presented on Spurs Vitalfootball which includes such remedies as a salary cap, max 1st team squad size compelling the playing of youth in times of injury or suspension and a reduction in Premiership prize money with the extra funds going to sides who are prepared to give English players 1st team action. Whilst English players might be more expensive this would balance out with teams receiving extra payments for playing them.
EnglishSpur
NOBODY MENTIONED THAT CHELSKI BOUGHT PROMISING ENGLISH PLAYERS THAT WERE ABOUT TO BREAK INTO THE ENGLAND SENIOR TEAM (SCOT PARKER AND SIDWELL) AND PUT THEM ON THE BENCH FOREVER? IT IS A CRIME TO NOT "BORN" SOMEONE, BUT IT IS OKAY TO "KILL" SOMEONE IN FOOTBALL?
fcdematthew
Well there it is, England have failed in their bid for Euro qualification. The only thing missing this morning following the sacking of McClaren and Venables is the proffered resignation of Brian Barwick, after all Barwick is the incompetent oaf that instated McClaren (a man that everyone without exception knew would be an unmitigated disaster for England). It's a relief in many ways for to see McClaren lead England to what would've been a totally doomed Euro finals would've been far worse. Fabio Capello has all but offered his services to England which means Bumbling Barwick will ensure England end up with Fat Sam.
nikolaijns
sf4e, EnglishSpur was commenting about however we gloss over the facts, we still contribute zilch to the full Eng squad, then reeled off those names. My point being that you may have them in your squad, but they are not spurs 'products', they were purchased. In that article, FHG talks of the yougn english players bubbling under the surface who represent england at youth levels. If you choose to sign them, fair enough, your club's choice, but they came as 18-19+ (not sure how old lennon was when he signed...), so in truth by the time they joined you, they were pretty much there already, not developed youth...
»»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
McLaren is only the latest managerial disaster since the last one and until the next one. We don't yet have players or coaches good enough. In European terms we rarely have had. In the 12 competitons since we first entered in 1964 we have now failed to qualify 5 times. Of the 7 competitions we did qualify for we only got past the 1st round 3 times and as far as the semi-finals only once when it was played in England. It probably doesn't matter a great deal who coaches the team - the fault lines go much deeper.
Amos.
My question to the FA would be why the england u21 squad has performed so well over several years now & yet the first choice national side is a pile of s***. You have to bear in mind that the players representing England last night came through youth academies & most of them performed well at one time or another for England U21's. It seems to me the coaching at a lower level isn't the problem because the england youth set up works well, the problem comes when these younger players actually make it into their clubs first team, at that point the players appear to go backwards not forwards. There seems to be only a handful of managers that have the quality of staff available to move the youngsters forward & thats the problem which needs addressing...........Now for a crazy idea, how about the team that finishes bottom of the league gets the most (prize) money & the top the least. That way the teams at the bottom get a chance of improving over a period of time (even though they would still be relegated). The teams at the top don't need the cash anywhere near as much as the teams at the bottom & tv revenue wouldn't change, just the prize money. It means a team like Derby could be in line for a 50 million windfall at the end of the season & this would allow them to play more youngsters than they can currently chance because relegation wouldn't be such an issue. It would also make the league much more competitive in future years.
Ashburton Gooner
The international curse strikes again, Hleb out for several weeks, injured playing for Belarus in a meaningless game.
Little Dutch
Ashburton gooner, that is a very very good idea but unfortunately it would never happen as any team would want to get as much money as possible. I do agree with what you have said though. There is a lack of top class coaches and managers but i do also think that there is a lack of top class young home grown players and that is why it is so expensive to buy an english ect player. Think we should just make people play football on skegness beach and try to adopt some of the brazil skills :-) Wingston75, i see what you mean now. Lennon was bought when he was 17 so even though he had been through some coaching ect i still think a vast amount of time has been put into his development as he was and still is so young. So with him i would say we have helped to produce him. It is all a matter of opinion though of course. At the end of the day it is a very interesting debate but like i said earlier it all comes down to money. If you can buy gerard for £30 million or get someone exactly the same as him for £18 - £20 million who would you go for!?!? simple business sense and nothing to do with nationality
spursfan4eva
Little Dutch ... meaningless for who? I believe the final places in the Euro groups directly relate to where teams will be drawn for the World Cup qualifiers. Even though Belarus could not qualify, beating the Netherlands has propelled them to being in the 4th seeding tier rather than the 6th tier, increasing their chances of a better draw. In this light it is obvious Belarus would want to play their best team. If the Netherlands had won they'd have finished top of the group with obvious seeding implications as well. It should be the obligation of any team in any competitive competition to put out their best team if there are implications, including financial, for them, their opponents and others in the tournament
EnglishSpur
You can twist facts though!!
cusop
I mean ok... are you serious? To contribute to smth positive is one thing. To boast that you are contributing to something that makes you look bad, feel bad and remind of something that smells bad is a little odd, to say the least. Do you really think Sp*rs CONTRIBUTED with Robinson, Dawson, King, Jenas, Defoe, Huddle20stone and Lennon? Do you think the Chel$ki setup CONTRIBUTED with Fatso Lampard who perfectly epitomised the McClaren "umbrella and cappuccino" leadership on the sidelines. Bridge, SWP and Joe Cole? The only two players who played like they give a toss were Crouchie and Beckham. Do you even ask yourselves what are the salaries of these phonies (Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Rooney, Ferdinand) and why?!
G4L
Wingston75 I find it interesting that you point out the list of players that were bought by Spurs but not developed, but you neglect to mention the players that were brought in by Gooners but not developed by them. How many of your current 1st team were developed by yourself? Would be curious to see who they are, as I honestly can't think of one with the exception of possibly Clichy, and I'm not too sure how old he was when you brought him in.
Topspur1
Sorry! forgot about Hoyte
Topspur1
G4L, in answer to your question..... Huddlestone has not been called up to the senior squad yet so has not contributed there but has impressed in the u21's. Defoe i thought did well when he came on and even "won" the penalty. King has been injured for most of the england games this qualifier but when fit he is an awesome player for both club and country. Lennon is another that has been injured and only just come back but when he plays he is good. Still has things to learn but is only 19. Robbo even though he has been going through a bad bit of form for 18 months still managed to keep 9 clean sheets in the qualifying games so has contributed. Dawson has 1 or 2 caps and that is it so not really contributed yet. I agree that the money all players are paid is obscene but that will not change for a long time. I personally thought crouch and the subs were the only players to play well last night.
spursfan4eva
Ashburton Gooner I take your point about U21 players, but I would also argue that their was enough quality in last night side to have got a result. My biggest concern is with the exception of Richards and Lennon their is very little coming through. You could probably include Gabby & Young at Villa, but that's it. I would also question our injury record, it can't be coincidence that we continually are missing 5/6 players for most games. Last night we were without our 1st/2nd & 3rd choice CH, along with both 1st choice FB and both 1st choice strikers. That's 7 of our best players, their has to be a reason. We should be looking to cut PL to 18 clubs, and cut back on cup games. But that will never happen.
Topspur1
Ashburton, it's a good point you make mate, but if you look at this article in the telegraph, you'll see Richard Scudamore say that the top team in the Prem will earn around £50m, whilst the bottom around £30m - due to the increase in rights and the new Sky money. This is an astonishing rise from even the 05/06 season when Chelsea won the Prem and earned 'only' £9.7m.... That's a 5 fold increase in 2 years....!!!! Telegraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/18/nfootie18.xml
michael105uk
The likes of Jenas and Dawson will only play friendlies for england. To add to the english-ness debate, the England ladies team is composed most Arsenal players.
49ers
spursfan4eva...thank you for the valid point you just made. Just as you said would you rather have a 150,000 Kolo Toure or a 30m Rio Ferdinand, a 35m Rooney or a 2.5m Van Persie, a 500,000 Fabregas over....except you are Chelsea/Manu and dont give a damn about developing youth the answer is no. Therein lies the dillema....this is one of the things that has pushed out english players from Arsenal....Can you imagine that Theo Walcott is costlier than Thiery Henry (or almost the same cost) and that a player like Agbolanhor could cost as much as 15m...when you can get cheaper and better in brazil...or an Eboue from Africa for 3m...there is a ray of hope however, the current crop of under 21 players in england looks promising. But they still have to FIGHT for their place because the clubs are investments and do not belong to the nation. Clubs like Manu and Chelsea have consistently "bought" their successes (in varying degrees though) and I would actually blame them for the stupidly increasing costs of players - not just english players....some blame will go to a club that buys a Bent for 16m - HE ISNT WORTH IT.....finally....Ashburton Gooner, what you are proposing is impracticable the world doesnt work like that - you cant reward failure. the way forward is for the FA to develop a proper youth academy and not spend 1 billion on a stupid Wembley stadium....also to stop appointing INEPT coaches like McLaren. This is a good wake up call the way I see it....if we do the right things in four yrs we can reap the benefits. I dare make a prediction here - in 4-6 years we will look back and see how much Wenger has done for english football...not just in the quality we all see...but in the future crop of english players he is presently grooming - but hey - they have to FIGHT FOR THE SHIRT - ask Clichy he will tell them how, ask Flamini.....we are always looking for favors..last week we were looking to Israel for a MASSIVE favor - and they obliged...yesterday we EXPECTED Croatia to roll over and play dead...IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY.....look at countries succeEding --Italy - Grit and backbone examplified with imbued training from an early age...also take a look at all the african players making it into the french team - they FIGHT for it and beat out french nationals... Its not your right to wear the Arsenal jersey because you are English - Arsenal is a bussiness venture and is not owned by England. Only a fool would choose Hoyte over Sagna, Bentley over Hleb or Pires...or a mediocre team....and when an Ashely Cole decides to move over a stupid squabble...DONT BLAME ARSENE FOR NOT KISSING HIS ASS AND TREATING HIM LIKE A KING.
number14
I stand corrected ES, Arsenal's title challenge pails into insignificance in light of Belarus receiving slightly smaller thrashings in their next qualifying campaign.
Little Dutch
My point is, that if the clubs choose to spend that money on foreign players (most of the clubs) and over inflated wages (West Ham) rather than investing large chunks like Arsenal are in youth development (10 training pitches in London Colney - each one the exact dimensions of Emirates, 11 v 11 on half size pitches, all the kids learning to pass and move constantly) and not only looking for instant success/survival then maybe the English national team would be in better shape. I don't blame Arsenal at all. We've done more than any club to ensure infrastructure is inplace to develop quality English players and over the next couple of years it will bear fruit. However, there's too many clubs who take this windfall and use it to buy new stadiums to generate even more money and huge numbers of foreign players. I think the FA should have put conditions on this windfall with a certain percentage being forced to be spent on youth development facilities.
michael105uk
We all know PL clubs are not spending enough money on youth development, but investment in youth development has to go all the way down to the bottom clubs in the lower divisions. In fact I would argue it is far more important that lower league clubs invest in youth set ups, but I don't think for one moment the PL or the FA will do anything to help these clubs
Topspur1
number14, my point exactly. I think it is a shame that there aren't more english or home nation players in the arsenal team but it is a business and if you can get fabregas for £1 million (example) but gerard for £30 million then i know who will be picked. It is just simple logic. However i do think the answer is in putting money into coaching and academy's as if you produce more top class young players then the price of english players drops as there are more out there. Yes Bent cost more than i would have liked but i dont think he was over priced when you look at the current market. He is a top top player and once spurs are up and running he will show his worth. He also has youth on his side. I just think all of this highlights even more that football is a money orientated sport nowadays and will remain so
spursfan4eva
Well hopefully you guys have had a nice break from the norm through speaking to me and topspur :-)
spursfan4eva
spursfan4eva...well i hope for englands sake that spurs investment on Bent will pay off........michael105uk those are some interesting news there - if it is all true.
number14
sf4e, interesting choice of words and stats. 9 clean sheets say you. 2 against macedonia, 2 against andora, 2 against estonia are hardly worth mentioning are they? notable ones are Russia (h) and errr.... help me out here. King actually participated in this campaign, although right now it seems like it was decades ago. And Defoe's contribution comes down to winning a penalty? After what Dawson has contributed to your cause I doubt he will get close to an england call up any time soon. Lennon has to dislodge SWP and probably Beckham to get a sniff of England. Bent... well I leave that to you.
G4L
G4L, you asked about each players contribution so i answer you. The teams that we got clean sheets against in this qualifying section may not be of much note but a clean sheet is a clean sheet. The easiest person to blame is always the keeper remember. As for King, i never said he didnt participate in the qualifiers. I just said that he had missed many games. I stated defoe's contribution last night and no other contribution he has made as he tends to be more of a squad player. Dawson has had a bad start to the season but last year he was immense and as i am a spurs fan i should know as i do get to see him play. As for Lennon, becks will retire soon and doesn't play enough to have 90 mins on the pitch and as for swp. I dont think swp is anything special and tends to run down blind alleys. If you see anything of Lennon in the first 45 odd games for spurs last year he was brilliant and then burnt out. This season he has been injured so think you are being very harsh on him. I did however state he has things he needs to learn but he is 19 and has time on his side. Doubts over bent are a bit strange when he has scored goals in every team he has played. He has hardly started for us but is starting to look good when he has come on. Anyway, i didnt think this discussion was about spurs? i thought it was about youth players coming through and the state of the english game?
spursfan4eva
Yes spursfan4eva - you have both argued your points with civility which is indeed a change from the norm from your quarter. You realise you are both an acute embarrassment to your side :-)
Amos.
I imagine, Little Dutch, that Aliksander Hleb is a proud Belorussian who is delighted to turn out and represent his nation and it means slightly more on a personal level than playing for a club who might choose to sell him 2 years into the future. By playing in a group with fewer 'big teams' will undoubtedly raise the prospect of Belarus qualifying which may have the effect of contributing more to their beleaguered coffers. Furthermore, it has often been sport which has helped open the eyes of people living under oppresive regimes, and I applaud Hleb for actually taking the opportunity to play for pride rather than just collect his £70K per week. And a team which beats the Netherlands clearly is moving away from receiving thrashings.
EnglishSpur
topspur1, the point of the article was about english players, not about foreign players, and how Arsenal are developing young english talent. Since we all know that there are no regular first team starters for Arsenal (yet), as others ceaseless bore us by pointing out, we are not claiming to have developed our first teamers. Even though we could say that we have, as much of the coaching and trust placed in fabregas since he came to Arsenal aged 15 has embellished what he had gathered from the Barça youth academy, the same going for Traore, Djourou, (both fringes of first team), Theo obviously (whatever anyone says about him being a soton product, since he has been at Arsenal, Arsene and the coachign staff have been developing him into a more complete player, this will become apparent in time...). Bendtner too has been here since he was 15/16, he too is on the fringes of the first team, and during the coming months, he will get more first team action. These players have all been developed by Arsenal, who will have had a heavy and profound effect on their developemnt as players.
»»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Why would you want to lay claim to be providing your fair share of players for the biggest underachieving football nation in Europe? Seriously? It's nothing to be proud of.
TDBhoy
Amos, unfortuately every club has fans that are solely out to annoy others. Several arsenal fans do it on the spurs pages just as some spurs fans do it on the arsenal pages. It is a shame
spursfan4eva
TDBhoy, I'm not proud of the English first team, but I am proud of the U21's and the praise Theo receives - the match the other night in Portugal - his performance was so good even the Portuguese fans were singing his name.
michael105uk
And how many other Arsenal fans were like me, and whilst were gutted about England going out, weren't filled with a certain amount of pride with the ball Eduardo played for the second goal. That's Wenger all over it. As for next Summer's Euro 2008? I'm lalready looking forward to watching Spain, Netherlands and France doing well and I'll certainly be cheering on the Ivory Coast in January at the ACN. Surely, as insular islanders the English are, this can only be good for our own horizons if not our National team?
michael105uk
number14, its not about rewarding failure, its about trying to get more quality home grown players into the premiership & also making the premiership more competitive as a whole. The NFL works on a similar principle (albeit draft picks & not money), the lowest ranking team get to pick first, so in theory it should make them more competitve over a period of years. Us Arsenal fans are lucky because we know that the club will always be challenging for top honours (I don't mean every season but over time we will always be around the elite clubs), other fans aren't so lucky. I don't have any sympathy for poorly run clubs, but I do have sympathy for smaller teams in areas that can't attract the sort of support the big clubs get!!
Ashburton Gooner
sf4e, if we go by the "individual contribution by club" to the England side in terms of players developed - your team won't go further than King, and perhaps Lennon and bit of Campbell. Liverpool will be left to Owen, Gerrard and Carson(!), Chel$ki with Terry, Arsenal with Cashley bit of Sol and Bentley, and United with Wesley Brown, Neville sisters and Beckham. West Ham would be at the top. On the Lennon issue, yes he is 19, but he will face fierce competition from SWP, Pennant and perhaps Walcott in the near future.
G4L
G4L, i think at the moment swp is pushing lennon but i dont think swp's has enough in his locker to realistically keep lennon out of any team. As for walcott, i dont think he is even anywhere near lennon personally. Yes he is going to be a good player but he is not a winger. I think that wenger is just trying to develop him into a player that can take on and run past players just like henry was able to do. Of course this is all just opinion and it may turn out that walcott becomes the best winger in the world but i very much doubt it. The person i think that will push lennon is ashley young at villa as he can play left or right side of midfield and is a real rising star. Pennant i wont even comment about
spursfan4eva
By the way, a question for everyone: who is the last player from Huddersfield that played for England? Was there any? If yes, were most of you born to see that? Just wandering.
G4L
*wondering that is.
G4L
I think it is good for the national team, Michael, as hopefully it will result in a root and branches look at the national structure. Personally however I have zero interest in Euro2008 now - I follow my team, and I follow my country. I can appreciate a good international game now and then (Germany v Italy) but hopefully it will be a good summer. The Euro2008 organizers must be gutted considering the spending power of English fans. I hope Italy win as again this shows the benefit of strong domestic representation in a national league - Italy are the best of the top5 leagues with I think the Telegraph showing that 70%+ of players in SerieA are Italian.
EnglishSpur
time will tell sf4e. anyway, thanks for a goodhearted debate.
G4L
G4L - naughty naughty!!! :D »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Wingers, will ANYONE answer that?!
G4L
G4L, you too mate
spursfan4eva
ES, amen to the first part, skeptical over Italy comments. They won the WC, yes (after a while) - but their club football and organization... you wish you'd never wished that. 70%+ italians, but only the teams that have a huge international contingent are/have been successful in Europe: AC Milan, Inter Milan, Roma, Juventus, maybe even Lazio. The rest are p1$$ poor. Plus, due to their overly national(istic) stances and other social and sociological issues - Italian football is renown for the following: corruption, bribes, crime related organizations, political overinvolvement in sports, the ultras of different types (nazi and Mussolini, socialist/communist followers), hooligans, murders, police brutality... See my point?
G4L
I see that Inter Milan are topping Serie A at the moment with a squad made up of 82% foreigners. They have only 5 italians and 3 of them are keepers
Amos.
Thank you G4L and Amos....thats how to use statistics. 70% + italians in the Italian league doesnt say much.....the top teams in Italy are staffed similarly to ours....with respect to the quota of nationals. The way the Italians operate, they keep a core of very good players for a long period and replenish the squad gradually....Gattuso, Inzaghi etc...have been in reckoning for a long time. The french are different...more than 50% of their players are actaully foreigners...mostly Africans - who compete with actual frenchmen for places in the national team. Here in England I think we get carried away by media hype and fame and we easily forget the job...the Pennants, Cole's want to be superstars...teh Owens are made of glass. I hope the crop of talent coming through can keep grounded.
number14
carson - leeds, micah richards - oldham, lescott - wolves sol - spurs, SWP - forst n man city, gerrard - liverpool, lampard west ham, joe cole - west ham, barry - brighton n villa, crouch - spurs as you can see from this the startin eleven yesterday the big four give us really naff all in terms off youth players into the starting eleven
smiggyswfc
Aha, and ACMilan won the champions league last season with 7 Italians in the starting XI and 11 in the overall 18
EnglishSpur
ES, that's true - AC Milan have the biggest Italian group of all teams. Currently 11th on the table. Average age of the dozen italians last year is approx. 33
G4L
Anyone notice how Jermain Defoe and Steven Gerrard's sickening dives haven't been mentioned today? Give either of them a French surname and an alice band and voila! You've got an outrage.
Little Dutch
So it's not just me... I enjoyed watching the U21's play against Portugal, well deserved draw. Heard Theo even got the home fans chanting "Theo, Theo!" That's how good he looked to them. Technique and experience aside, I just felt the enthusiasm and pride and effort that the kids played with, even though they're away from home. Whereas for the "senior" "world-class" folks, I honestly can't name one player who I thought really gave 100%. Yes Crouch was hard-working as ever, Gerrard running around like mad with no result, Beckham at least contributed with a good cross for the equaliser. Other than that, I didn't see the due respect and motivation as it's supposedly "the" match. If they couldn't fight to death in the very last chance for qualification, I don't know what to say. Just woeful. Very very disappointing.
Louisa
Little dutch, to be honest mate i didnt really see defoe dive around. He got the penalty through a tug on his shirt and arm on him. It was a very soft penalty but defoe wasn't rolling around the floor and even though it was soft it was a penalty all the same. The only real players that played well were the subs and i do feel sorry for becks as that is ultimately the end of his international career. The team were a disgrace and thank god i didnt pay like £40 for a ticket to watch that rubbish
spursfan4eva
I don't see the difference between Defoe's and Pires' v Pompey which caused a national outrage (apart from the aforementioned nationalistic differences). Defoe used the defender to create the connection, tugging someone;s shirt and falling over is the same as kicking someone's leg and going over in my book. The Gerrard one wasn't even that, it was an out and out dive. Every team does it, but I just want to see an English player criticised for it for a change.
Little Dutch
I agree with you LD but from all the replays i have seen the defender tugged defoes shirt and then put his arm on him. Defoe didnt make a meal of it and didnt roll around so wasn't actively looking for a penalty as he was genuinely going for the ball and had beaten the defender hands down. The defender knew this hence the shirt pull and arm on defoe. It was a soft penalty dont get me wrong but i in no way think defoe play acted or dived
spursfan4eva
Nah, not buying it. Defoe didn't have the flight of the ball and isn't exactly brilliant in the air, he saw he couldn't get it, went down and then gesticulated to the linesman. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. (Though I wouldn't be that cordial with anyone suggesting that the zillionth dive of Gerrard's career was anything less than callous and desperate- much like the man himself).
Little Dutch
If anyone is still interested in this topic they can check out these two excellent articles: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2899454,00.html. This is from Jamie Redknap......and also this one: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2899637,00.html very excellent . According to Craig Johnson - "Managers aren't stupid. They are bringing foreign players he because they are better than their English counterparts. The kids aren't good enough and that shows you how badly things have been mismanaged by the FA for many, many years.....". You all have a fun weekend.
number14
LD, to be honest i have no idea about the Gerard one so cant comment but the defoe one i think we will agree to disagree. Different opinions never hurt anyone.
spursfan4eva
Twas William Blake who said, "it is by universal misunderstanding that we agree. If we stopped to listen to each other, there would be no chance that we'd ever agree."
Little Dutch
Just because Defoe didn't make a meal of it when he went down, does not mean he didn't dive. There was minimal contact and he saw the opportunity to hit the ground. C. Ronaldo can do that without rolling on the ground.
BMF
TDBhoy "Why would you want to lay claim to be providing your fair share of players for the biggest underachieving football nation in Europe? Seriously? It's nothing to be proud of." can't agree more.. as an Arsenal fan, i am proud that there is not even one Arsenal player in the current England senior team.
fcdematthew
 

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