How Long Do We Wait Before Having 'The Talk'?

Ultimately, the manager has to take the flack. Everybody's tried to have their little voodoo dolls. But Almunia, Diaby, Squillaci, Denilson, Bendtner and Eboue have either been sold or are MIA and the results persist. All sorts of ideas are being tossed around- sack the board, get a defensive coach, get a new assistant, change the captain. Ultimately, what's apparent is that the manager can't get inside his players' heads at the moment. This has been a long old slump now. We've had results in that time that you felt should have been building blocks. But they ruin their good work by cocking the gun and sticking it squarely at their temple again. The propensity to suicide is what is truly alarming. That's a problem of mentality and one the manager hasn't been able to solve for 7 months now. I don't know what the answer is, but one man has to find it and quickly.

Wenger has shown that he is incapable of brining this team any further. His results since March, if they had been in a single season and not broken by the summer break, would be enough to get him sacked. He is massively underperforming and he cannot seem to do anything to change it. It is now at the stage where the problem has gone past Wenger and moved onto board level. They are the ones that have the difficult decision to make, not Wenger. I honeslty believe that when a manager (in football or in business) loses his people to this extent then there is sadly no going back. Its a terrible and sad end for a great manager but the longer teh board allow it to go on the greater the damage to the club and the sadder it will be for Wenger. Beyond league position, results and arguements about who we should have signed or sold the decent thing for the board to do is sack Wenger.

"The training they receive is decided by him and the formation and tactics the team employs is down to him." - Some might believe that's part of the problem.

The counter argument to the that DF is that new manager syndrome can sometimes work, take Roy Hodgson at WBA last term for instance, the flipside being Shearer or Dowie taking over at Hull and Newcastle. I wouldnt trust this board to appoint the right person so no doubts for me that he stays, the worst that can happen is we miss out on CL football for the 1st time in 14 years.

Regarding changing the manager we need to ask ourselves do we think that Wenger can make things better and if not are we happy with the way we are now? If we dont think he can improve things then it is a question of if we are happy with the level of performance as is. If we are not and we dont think that Wenger can improve things then the sooner we make the change the better. I dont agree that the worst that can happen is missing out on 4th place. We can miss out on Europe all together and we then enter next summer with two big players (VanP and Theo) in a similar situation to Nasri was this summer. The change, should it be made, should be made sooner rather than later.

Indecision and lack of action has always come back to haunt this club during the Emirates era. It's as if the old, winning Arsenal used everything it had to get us over the line into a new stadium, then it died. I would give Wenger until Christmas, we have good players and he's not getting anywhere near the best out of them. The club cannot be paralysed by fear and opt to do nothing, they have to look at the reality of our results and performances. Wenger himself has always wanted to be judged on results, well let's do that. By Christmas if the pattern is not convincingly broken then we have to get a new manager, perhaps not a long term one but someone who can break this self destructive pattern and basically keep us in the PL. Hopefully it won't come to that and perhaps by December Wenger will remind us what a great manager he is but I just don't think he gets it. Every opportunity to change things he passes. The start of this season is a direct link to this summer of inaction which is a direct link to the form of last season. Not one opportunity was taken with even mild conviction.

@kernowboy71. You do know about Forest and Leeds right? People just saying "you won't get relegated" doesn't change reality. What is this assessment based on? Not facts. The fact is we have been in relegation form for half a season. If Spurs had kept Ramos where would you be today? No one would think that could happen to Wenger's Arsenal but it has, he is trapped in a Ramos nighmare. All I'm saying is that if things don't change then Wenger has lost the players and won't be able to get them playing. We will have no choice but to get someone in, short term if necessary, to kick their asses into gear.

LG, I didn't suggest that. But you can't deny people have chosen to pin all of Arsenal's ills on one unpopular player or another at one time? You go to enough games to hear it all the time. Walcott trips over the ball and everyone bites their tongue and saves their venom up for when Denilson gives it away, then he takes all that pent up frustration. It's just the way football supporters, sadly, seem to operate these days. What I'm saying is that the victimisation of individuals has been exposed as folly in our case. It's clearly a collective problem and always was.

I wouldn't say it was folly, it's only folly if you're a complete idiot and do actually, as you say LD, pin all of Arsenal's ills on one unpopular player, which I think is you playing devil's advocate somewhat. So, a lot of people thought Denilson/Eboue/Almunia were pony, they weren't saying they were the SOUL reason for us not playing well, and if they were, well they're clueless...they were just *****e players that were not on the level that we should be playing at.

I agree the crowd have their favourites, personally speaking I'll be just as upset or happy if a mistake or a good piece of play was actioned by Denilson OR Gibbs (for example) They all wear the same shirt. I genuinely don't think anyone could be stupid enough to believe that we would go on some winning spree without the aforementioned whipping boys, no matter how poor they maybe.

Damiano, of course it wasn't a problem then, what's your point?

It’s all a bit bonkers right now but at least it’s exciting. I was around during the mid to late seventies when we were struggling against relegation and were poor – I mean really poor. On Saturday though I thought we played well against Blackburn, particularly the first half and based on that I can’t see us fighting relegation this year. We have the creative ability demonstrated by six goals scored in the last three league games, five of them away from home. Wenger has blamed the players for the defeat saying that we gave the game away rather than lose it and that players have to look at themselves. Absolutely they do. They seem to be in a mental stupor at the moment illustrated by Song and Kos when they watched the ball bounce off them and trickle into their own net. The body language of the two players was as if it were pre-ordained that disaster would befall them and well, there it is. But they only need to clear their heads and look at the potential in the team and stop feeling sorry for themselves. When they do we’ll start to get the same good fortune that ManUre enjoy every week. So should Wenger go? No, not yet, his job right now is to help change the mindset by employing a little more pragmatism.

Sir Henry, do you not believe this was something he should of done last season as well (during the terrible run from Newcastle away to Fulham away at the end)? If he couldn't do it then, why should now be any different? The same players making the same mistakes is one thing, but now new players are as well and the only common link is a manager failing to do what he is extremely well rewarded to do.

Shewore - LG - What I'm saying is that when I hear people say that 'Wenger isn't a good manager / doesn't do tactics / doesn't say enough at half-time / doesn't motivate / doesn't buy good players / tactics are wrong / training is wrong', or that the team 'needs British-ness' etc. (insert your own, too-often-repeated cliches in there), it's at odds with the truth. Which is that for the first 90% of his time at Arsenal, no-one had an issue; but after a bad run the knives come out. It's so short-term and short-sighted it makes my p1ss boil.

I think you overestimate people's intentions. Guy down from me for instance, only ever opens his mouth when Chamkh is on the ball. You must've heard hundreds like him, I know I have. Don't say a thing until their little hobby horse is involved. That's what I'm getting at and I think that clearly has been exposed. Largely, who in the team that played Blackburn has come in for prolonged stick from the crowd? Nobody really, yet the same stupid errors persisted.

damiano Clough was a brilliant manager in his prime, problebly in the top 3 in eourope in his prime. but in the end noone will argue he had lost his mojo. being good 5 otr 10 years ago does not guaranty you that you will be good to day. The point is and people can point this out to you until their p1ss boils we keep doing the same mistakes not game after game but year after year. Look at our defensive play, we constantly do the same mistakes year on year. it was only when Campell was at his best I felt confidend when we where dealing with set pices. Same for picking up the runners and ditto with positional play. thats something you train people to do and if the proplem continues with different personell then you are not training them properly.

Armory, I understand the frustration at conceding goals the same way for 2/3 years, and it is very annoying that goals seem to be conceded in the same way, regularly. Statistically though, Arsenal didn't concede many goals last year. Only the three clubs above us conceded fewer. So a problem exists (especially this season so far), but is it really as big as it's made out to be? Last year the talk was that Arsenal concede far too many goals and the defence is rubbish - when they conceded 6 more league goals than United over the course of a season. So, were we 6 goals different or 'they're fantastic and Arsenal are terrible'? We all want better results, but it's not helpful to over-react.

LD - No I hear you, there's several like hat round me. Me, I just slate all of 'em! lol Seriously though it is a useful way of slapping those people down, I just cannot believe that there's fans who believe Denilson or Eboue has cost us trophies, maybe I am (as you say) overestimating peoples ignorance. Most Gooners I know right now are quite confused as to what needs to happen, then when I jump online everyone seems to have the answer, myself included. I think the wait and see scenario will play out and we'll know soon enough if Arsenal will continue to prosper under Wenger. I would just like to know when WE will know......

ag, Rocky has dared to come out publicly with thoughts many of us AW supporters have been dealing with recently. So just STOP scolding anyone who dares to air them. Sorry but you lose all crediblity when all you can offer is just "bad luck" to explain the absolute consistency of this team's failings that have persisted for years now. I immediately dismiss anyone who offers such a pathetic "analysis". The simple fact is that these thoughts have now entered the heads of many diehard Wenger supporters - people who know how to have perspective, reasonable, rational fans. And it's fair to debate them. Just stop this kneejerk mindless worship of a manager who critical examination - that's all, just examination, questioning. Not out and out campaigning for his ouster.

Prior to the Blackburn game, I remember seeing a statistic somewhere which suggested that Blackburn were to get the 3 points it would be Arsenal's 100th away defeat in the premiership.Needless to say my heart skipped a beat.Glad we got that out of the way then:). Seriously though,for Gazidis to feel the need to parrot the security of Wenger's job to all and sundry says it all.I have long asserted that Wenger is not the most tactically astute of the football management fraternity.Additionally,for me his motivational abilities are woefully inadequate.Even when the Invinsibles were tearing teams apart,it wasn't because Wenger was at his motivational best,NOO,it was because we had the likes of PV4,TH14.SC23 and JL1,who were born winners and knew what it meant to play for AFC. For me,if you are going to disassemble a great team of born winners,you do not replace them with technically gifted whingers and bottlers and throw in a few brittle inconsistent frenchmen and inept brazilians as well as a totally incompetent fourth rate goalie and tell the whole world that they are world beaters!!!.That has been Wenger's downfall and I for one am grateful for all he has done for AFC,but come January,if we are not near enough to the top8 and delivering consistent results,I fear he would have lost the majority of fans and would have to have his P45 dispatched to him."A blow which is inevitably yours,earlier encountered extricates one from much worse eventualities".125 years of AFC has to count for something.At least he will always be eulogised at the club, along another managerial great Herbert Chapman won't he???????

I feel Wenger isn't completely out of ideas and I will go so far as to say I believe he could lead a resurgence, taking our team back to the land of silver. BUT and it is a giant BUT, I feel he has been given too much rope with which to hang himself. It would appear no one at the club has the testicular fortitude or authority to hold him accountable for his obvious blindspots. No man can be great at everything. Wenger is a great manager. He NEEDS someone to tell him when he is wrong tactically or when he is overestimating players abilities. He NEEDS someone to go in turn his collection of good defenders into a well oiled and effective defensive unit. The players have changed, the problems have not. The issue must then be what is done on the training ground and on the white board. He has tried to play barca style football on a shoestring budget to no avail. He must now build an effective strategy and system based on what AFC can support. It can be done, the question is really only whether or not he is capable of swallowing his pride and doing it. If not he must go.

Great quote from the Guardian in response to Gazidis recent statement on Wenger not getting sacked ***Most sensible people have to agree that operating within your means is a sound policy. What few people understand, however, is why running a tight financial ship has to mean having a shambolic defence***

Your point about United having to play the same sorts of teams and not giving up the points we have is a good one, Armory. The difference is Ferguson is a great coach and Wenger is a great manager. Slightly different skill sets. Coaches are interested in the future but focused on the here and now. Ferguson's teams have not always had stellar quality but they were consistent. Does anyone really believe the United squad of 10/11 was THAT much better than ours? I don't. They were very well drilled and while often dull they were effective. This year they have added a couple more players and seem to be playing some quite enjoyable, and still effective football. If they have injuries or a rough patch I guarantee they will revert to just the basics though. Don't concede. Kick, bite, and scratch for every point. Wenger's plan is to play the same way regardless of the talent on hand, or the opposition of the day. He honestly believes if you just keep playing that way the results will come but that simply isn't true.

As for my view on this question-I know I'm not alone in saying that this is a very difficult issue for me. The Blackburn game infuriated me more than any other humiliation or defeat we've suffered in the post-Invincibles era. It was the first time I firmly, definitely, clearly thought: "that's it, I've had enuf. It's painful to say this, but Arsene needs to go." The fact that the same old problems appear with even totally new players (experienced veterans) is telling. I honestly wonder if even if we had Vidic and Maldini in his prime our results would be the same. I've been saying for months now that far too much attention is paid to signings, that our problems go much much deeper. LD is spot-on when he says that fans keep scapegoating invidividuals--yet the same issues persist even in their absence. For me it truly looks like our problems are structural, fundamental-irrelevant of individuals. These are thoughts I don't want to have but I cannot avoid thinking about the many observations I've heard from former players, journos, etc. who know Arsene and his coaching set-up intimiately (for years, since his arrival in England). Things like the fact that he has not changed his set-up in 15 yrs. Quotes from former players that reveal our training is not very intense like it is at Man City. Cesc and other former players saying at Arsenal they spend little to no time studying the opposition. Quotes that reveal that at Arsenal young players like Traore have no guidance as to what they did well or poorly since no one tells them because Arsene's philosophy is for players to learn all by themselves. Arsene's evident disregard for young players to develop alongside elder veterans. Quotes from Arsene himself in response to the team's defensive frailties that show he hasn't spent much time training his team on those areas--last season (or maybe the season before) when he mentioned our set piece issues he amazingly said something like "that's easy to fix" - as if it wasn't something he spent much time on. His tactical weaknesses. Wasting talented players out of their position for years. And finally-a consistent inability to instill cohesion and maturity into this team. Not that we've never shown it-it just never lasts. Last season we showed fantastic performances in which collective disciplined pressing brought us success, notably against Chelsea. We also went on a very good defensive run last season-which for a time had me wondering if we'd finally turned a corner on that part of our game. But it never lasts. Inevitably the team collapses and shows incredible mental frailty, laziness, complacency, disorganization, lack of communication. Last season we had no excuses-we had a comparatively easy time of it injury-wise and our rivals were not impressive. In fact I loudly proclaimed to anyone who'd listen that for awhile there we were without doubt the best team in the PL. So I simply can no longer dismiss any arguments pointing fingers at the manager. Doesn't mean I'm calling for him to go right now because that would indeed be stupid. But-assuming the season plays out with little changing-I think next summer I'll be among those saying it's time for Arsene to go. I think he's stood still while the game has passed him by. Something about the whole team set-up and management feels stale. And it feels very much like the end of the Graham era. Mind you, that doesn't mean I think we'll automatically be so much better once he goes. It'll be a big risk to let him go-we might indeed become a mid-table team, maybe even lower, who knows. But the fact is that Arsene (if he doesn't change) is bringing us to that point anyway. Yes I understand our financial limits restrict our success. But it doesn't take billions of pounds to build a team that can defend against Blackburn.

Fergie doesn't really do the coaching - he has employed a succession of different coaches over the years. Wenger essentially does all the coaching. But while it is possible that a very special coach can coach the team sufficiently to outperform Chelsea and Man City who are willing and able to buy the players they want and pay them wages that Arsenal cannot match the chances are that that coach will have been snapped up by the big spending clubs anyway. Nobody should ever argue against the proposition that we should get rid of our manager at any time if we can replace him with someone better. There should never be a time when we would not want to - but getting rid of the manager is the easiest part. Whoever comes in with the same resources (but maybe not the same skillset to generate those resources in the future) will face the same problems that exist now.

I don’t subscribe to the mantra that we’ve had out midfield ripped out because Nasri gave us three good months at best and Cesc spent a fair amount of last season injured. So we achieved what we did last season with the likes of Jack, Song, an underachieving Nasri and Cesc every now and again. Arteta is as good as Nasri if not better so offensively we are a not far off last season, especially with Gervinho. With potential like this I refuse to panic. We have a decent squad of players and I think we can recover the season. On this basis Wenger should stay and sort it out because when I alluded to the seventies earlier I was trying to illustrate how bad things have been in the past and how dire a relegation team is. But this is a decent Wenger team so getting rid of him at this point will not help. This current “crisis” has a simple solution the hard bit is for Wenger and the players to acknowledge it

a little correction to your article; since the carling cup final, we have only won 3 games (blackpool, mu & swansea) out of 16. we could not point the trouble to injuries because it is part & parcel of the game and all teams have the same problem. like i mentioned before, i think we get more injuries because of our tactics require the players to cover more ground due to short passing & more sudden burst of sprint to defense when the opponent hit us with long ball counter attacks. most of our injuries were not inflicted by physical challenges but due muscle strain.

new to the forum....long, long time reader....times are tough but I just wanted to bring up an idea for all to chew on..... what about if we hired a new coach to work with the players like Ray Wilkins? I know he was with Chel$ea but it has been obvious the effect he had on the team...maybe moreso than the manager....Wenger stays to influence the style of play, but Wilkins works "in the trenches" with the players, mentally, motivationally, etc.... just an idea....

There are reports that a defensive coach could be appointed, but the Guardian states that Wenger does not want any additions to his coaching set up. Don't really know what to believe, but a change surely cannot hurt? Its better to get in a defensive coach if it stops us conceding 4 goals against Blackburn! As for Wenger's future, I also have been disheartened at the backward steps taken by this club over the past 6 months, but I would postpone judgment on this till December. If we are nowhere near the top 4 in December, then it might be time for a change in manager. I don't think that this team will be relegated - the offensive quality is there, and the team attacked well against Blackburn. It will take time for this back 5 to gel together as a unit, but we do need to make some change.

Sack Wenger? Really? Who exactly do you think could do a better job right now? After 5 games the thought is nonsense. I thought we as Arsenal fans were better than the usual "he's got to go" screamers. It wasn't long ago that fans in Manchester were calling 5live saying "time for fergie to go."

I think what Wenger doesn't like is spotty teenagers on the internet and clueless journalists trying to tell him (after "30 years of coaching") how to coach a football team, by suggesting he get a defensive coach.

Arsenal have plenty of defensive input at the club. Primorac, Rice, Banfield, Bould and Wenger himself were all defenders schooled in the art. Arsenal don't play in a style that defensively focussed coaches would approve of but in any case it's not very hard to be defensively more solid - just difficult to do so while also being offensively effective. It'll come when we get the balance of the team right and even then that'll depend on being able to get our first choices out often enough which isn't always entirely in the clubs hands.

Spot on Damiano. I can't believe some of the posts I have seen up here. Understandable, mostly, but still uncalled for so early in the season. My feeling is that Wenger can fix this and has to do it fast; some hard decisions will have to be taken including player roles, team formations and training regimen. Only time will tell.

damiano_tommassi - You have completely missed my point. You stated their are obviously problems and Wenger is the man to sort them not some spotty teenager. Well these same problems have been manifested since the Newcastle 4-4 game (not the CC as some people think) and things have still not changed over 30 games later and with new players. The one common factor is the manager, so it is clearly something he is doing or endorsing right? Therefore if he cannot fix it over 3o games would someone else be able to or an additional member of staff or special defensive coach? who knows, but they certainly wouldn't make it it **** worse than it is now. I said the other day, or defence is worse than the sum of it's parts and that is down to one person only, the manager....

Really interesting debate and comments from most. Those saying 'oh it's only 5 games' are mistaken, because this isn't just about those, it isn't just about the collapse Carling Cup onwards, it's about the consistent lack of action taken in the past 5-6 summers on the same issues. It does appear that Arsene cannot get the team to perform consistently and I have little faith anymore that he can rectify this. Hasn't he been trying for the last 5-6 seasons?

Amazed that people get so shocked and appalled at good Arsenal fans discussing all things Arsene in a respectful manner, did you fall off your chairs or spit coffee on your laptop monitors?

It isn't true that Wenger hasn't been able to get the team to perform consistently over the last 5 or 6 seasons - 3rd or 4th every season is the very model of consistency! What we haven't been able to do is to better Chelsea and ManU - and now Man City consistently. What will a new manager, with the same resources but maybe not the same ability to generate his own resources, be able to do about that? I haven't the slightest idea but if we can find someone who know will definitely do better and not worse we should appoint him straight away.

Gooner_Vin, could you not apply the same questions to Spurs, Liverpool, Villa, Everton, Wolves, Newcastle, Stoke, Sunderland, Wigan, Blackburn, Fulham, Bolton... all of whom scored fewer and conceded more goals than us last year?

Fair play.

Its not about bettering Manu or Chelsea. Its about improving the deficiencies within the own club, something that Wenger directly controls. He cannot control what ManU and the others spend. Look at our defensive record over the past 4 seasons (goals conceded ) 2011 - 43, 2010 - 41, 2009 - 37, 2008 - 31. This team has been consistently shipping in more and more goals with every passing season. And someone earlier said it was an insult to suggest a defensive coach for this Arsenal side?! I find that surprising, given the evidence, both in terms of stats and what we've been seeing with our own eyes as fans.

Both of prits points above perfectly sum up my own thoughts on the matter. The macro factors aren't that much to blame for the apparent lack of defensive organisation. Of course I'll never know, but I just don't see the defensive side of the game drummed into these players enough. Why can we go from playing a pressing game against Chelsea and winning one week, and then not doing it some weeks later? The amount of times I have seen Rooney or Messi track back and win the ball back is amazing, yet I always seem to note Walcott never really doing it. You can argue you can't teach that to players, that they have it in them, but Guardiola's Barca show that isn't true. The fact that the team has this ability to self-destruct shows me that they're not mentally strong enough when it really counts. I think it has to be the manager's approach that hasn't been working. There is simply no other explanation for the consistent implosions, even with new personnel.

damiano_tommassi - Ferguson has been through 4-5 different coaching (Kidd, McLaren, Quiroz, Muelenstein etc) set ups to help him move with the times. Football is evolutionary, it is always developing and having coaches whose ideas 15 years ago were great doesn't mean they will be able to "do the business" nowadays. I (actually none of us) know the underlying cause of the issues, we know Wenger is the one consistent throughout this turbulent period and it is there where the debate should start (has started) we can only speculate if it's the training, coaches, manager what ever. The buck stops with the bossman and so far he has abjectly failed to arrest a 30 games (say it to yourself again), 30 game slump. Should he go? That's not for me to decide, I just believe considering other options would be a prudent policy if this nightmare run continues.

Prits - great point mate. Read this I found it on the net earlier this week, can't remember where from though, but it echo's your point exactly---Most sensible people have to agree that operating within your means is a sound policy. What few people understand, however, is why running a tight financial ship has to mean having a shambolic defence---

Always better to discuss than row, eh!
How many coaching set-ups has Wenger been through, so we can compare? Of course football evolves, you're right, and Wenger has been one of the most influential managers in helping it evolve; you'll find many sources who will tell you that he 'changed British football' by altering diets/behaviours etc., and the style of football his teams play stands out from the others. There are few managers in recent times that have influenced the premier league as much as him, are there? Maybe Mourinho with his 'buy strong players, kick people, and for the love of God don't entertain!!!' tactic and the now commonplace 4-5-1 (which even we're playing a variation of).
I suppose where my point of view differs from yours is that I don't think Wenger is failing; for me it's a very good squad having a very bad run, whereas I know a lot of other people think it's a bad squad - or at least, they like to shout about how bad they think most of the players are.

You know Shewore, that's why I'm finding hardest to take; if we had a poor squad and were doing badly life would at least make some sense; but we've got lots of quality players and the results aren't coming. We 'turn a corner' (Pat Rice) after getting past Udinese and beating Swansea, and then it doesn't go our way against Blackburn. I haven't seen any game this season - and I include that big thrashing - where we've been completely outplayed. We were far the better team against Blackburn (for me) and lost the game. Nobody played that badly against the red team from Manchester, but the scoreline was incredibly ugly. I'm scared to use the 'L' word on this site, so I'll say 'we haven't been very fortunate' recently.

damiano_tommassi - I agree, the man was a pioneer in the Premiership and now almost every team is using his performance anlysis and diet methods, but time stands still for one one and even now there has been developments, other clubs players seem less injury prone, more determined/fitter etc and that to me is an indication that we haven't moved with the times. It's not fact, but to me, it's a educated guess.

We have developed a reputation of fallibility, of dramatic disintegration and concession of silly goals and the players are totally aware of it when they cross the white line. Any attack by the opposition these days causes utter panic in our defence and players do crazy, inexplicable things. A freak event when we allowed Sp*rs to come back to 4-4 a couple of seasons ago was perhaps the catalyst for this and it has spiralled out of control because we didn’t snuff out the mental legacy of it. It seems to me that we need to be “boring” Arsenal again, for a while at least, so that we focus on stopping the opposition from scoring. We need to play ugly and do everything that’s required to prevent a goal against us. We need to feel insulted if the opposition score even a single goal. But as our MO has been outright attack for such a long time our attacking potential will still be there as it’s engrained in our club’s psyche. We will still score goals because it is instinctive. This is the pragmatism that Wenger should employ.

I agree d_t that it’s our style of play that has led to our current malaise borne out by the fact that no matter who we have in defence we still have that Keystone Kop quality. I want to over-compensate and go back to the “boring” ways because I know the current mindset of the players will look to push forward anyway so it will never be like the GG teams. I just want to rein ‘em in a bit!

Few 1-0s....that'd be pretty fantastic. Chucking numbers forwards isn't the reason for our conceding goals either, just watch em.

Why stop at the 4-4 against the Spuds? How about the 3-3 against Leicester in '98 when we were leading at half time and gave away two goals on set pieces in added time - or conceding three 2nd half goals to Blackburn in the same year again when leading at half time? The 3-0 loss at home to 'boro in 2001 when our defence gave away two own goals to set them up for the win? The 3 we conceded in the 2nd half defeat by Southampton the same year when again leading at half time? Much the same as the home game to Newcastle when we conceded 3 2nd half goals again to lose a game we were winning at half time? Our seasons are peppered with such calamities. They are fixed when we string a few wins together - but the next car crash is always liable to happen.

Yeah, let's not start anywhere with calamities cos we can trace them back forever i'm sure. They do seem to be happening a lot more lately though & they have more of a Tottenham 4-4 feel about them, as if, you know it's gonna happen, back then it felt a lot more like a one off and that we'd butcher whoever our next opponents were.

If we could play our first eleven more than three times in a season, we'd almost certainly be getting much better results. Big 'if' though, eh!

SW, what do you mean about 'not make an effort'? Are you talking about our forwards now, on the attack?

last i heard was whinger is looking for his diary, but like so many other things he hasn't seen it!!! 4th from bottom oh deary me how the mighty have fallen, and so quickly too, fabs doing well in a different shirt now, not injured as much either, mmmmmmmmm makes you wonder don't it.........lmfao

its great having you on this site Amos,

I like that - "the reputation of vulnerability". That reputation, and its knock-on affect on the confidence of our players, is massive. I also think it works wonders for opposition players' confidence. And last, I think it's a reputation first invented, then worsened, and now continued by the media... not sure what they've got against Arsenal, but they seem to have been squarely against them for some time now.

Never been a fan of zonal; it's often said that statistically it is the better option, but it just leaves defenders looking stupid. Remember when Liverpool started doing it under the fat Spanish waiter? They were on MOTD getting ridiculed every week.

damiano_tommassi