Wenger In van Persie Admission

Yeah cheers Arsene, want some pepper to spray in our collective eyes or chili sauce to smear round our nether regions whilst your rubbing that salt into our wounds? Open your wallet or just **** off now Arsene seriously, your schtick is tired and well past it's sell by date. Goonerdom has finally snapped, unable to bear this increasingly bewildered man trot out his increasingly tired platitudes any longer. More action less talk, if you aint gonna ***** then get off the pot etc etc etc. If you think this squad is complete and this seasons' results and performances have been acceptable from a threadbare squad being run into the ground then your time at Arsenal in the eyes of many is over old chap. This window is the decider for me, I came to the realisation some years ago that we would not win again under the man but if you sit on your hands, doing nothing again in this window when we are so obviously painfully & precariously understaffed then it'll be au revoir Arsene from this gooner. I'll have seen all I need to, I'll be giving what games remain to friends.

I have kept a studied silence about the transfer of Van persie, that silence hasn't come easy, it's been a function of pain. The pain I feel every time I see him in that shirt, the pains I feel for all the years of believing in him as he nursed one injury after the other, the pains of believing that those who runs the club would do what is right by the fans. I feel betrayed. I begin to understand the pains of a husband or wife, who walks in to find their spouse giving head to another person, and whats more, it's head being given in an incestuous homosexual relationship. It hurts. The sale of Robber Vandal Parriah, has cured me of any illusions I might have had about football, it marks a watershed moment in my life as a man and as a football supporter, I can never forget this, and regardless of what success Arsenal may go on to achieve in future, I will never support a player again. They are chattels to be traded, and they are workers much like any other. They may be hired and fired, and they may resign whenever they believe a better deal is to be had somewhere else. Before the PC brigade would presume to tell me what to think or say, bugger off! I am not a legrove adherent, I rarely join in their madness, but I sincerely believe the management of the club has let us the fans down, and they have done so very badly. A failure to qualify for the champion's league should see Wenger sacked, and the American chased out of town. A once great club has been reduced to ruins. Pls, do save your lectures for the marines!

Can you keep your Viyyash bloke on a leash. He spends more time on our sight talking about our players.

Easy Nik! Thought that was your sister and ya wife?

Lol "deploy Amosbot"

Deludu - honestly in your opinion could we have kept him for the last year even tho his contract wasn't "protected"? Cheers

@ deledudu - I refer you to m'learned friend Amos. shewore's question has already been decided by the courts.

One of your lot, Viyyash-Ramosh, is spending so much time trolling at Vital Spurs that he's inviting massive retaliation at your site. Since you have so few comments generally at Vital Arsenal, it wouldn't take much trolling to overwhelm the site. If you want to invite trolling here, so be it, but wouldn't it be better to have enough conversations amongst yourselves that she doesn't need to find company trolling at our site? By the say, you should adjust your poll to include DoF as a position in need of additions. ciao, folks.

2 things Amos, i genuinely am interested in a lawyer's perspective. And unfortunately i've already done my jury duty, he looked dodgy as f--k, ABH, custodial sentence, i was over the moon! If you were in the dock pal you'd be for it.

deploy Amosbot is the best ******** comment ive seen on VA - ever. Cheers shewore :D

When you hear Fergie say that he wanted the player badly enough hence he paid the premium and you contrast that with our penny pinching, is it any surprise of the positions of the two clubs. Funny how we expect other clubs to pay a premium for our top players but when it comes to other clubs we can't see they'd want the same. As the likes of John Cross of The Mirror have said, Arsenal have a reputation for dithering in the transfer market.

I think that arseblogger's blog today perfectly sums up where I am, and where many of our support are too.

Interesting that Arsene describes the phone call that Fergie instigated as 'professional'. What form might such a 'professional' call take? Could it be something along the lines of 'Look Arsene, we're old mates, you probably won't win the title this year even if RvP stays, but if you sell him to us we'll stand a chance of shutting up those oily lot down the road. We'll bung you a few bob. Alright you'll have to spend a chunk of it on another striker if you can find one but you'll still have a bit left over. Come on do us a favour, for old times' sake!' or is a 'professional' call more likely to be along the lines of 'Robin has said he wants to join us and as his contract is unprotected there's nothing to stop him doing so but as we're jointly liable we have to agree between us the amount of compensation (transfer fee) that is due to you under Article 17.' Just idle speculation of course and we won't know until Arsene, as he promises, tells us one day. I'd imagine he'd be less likely to tell us if it reflects negatively on the club though.

I totally understand why RvP went and I get why we sold him. I'm, personally, not angry about any of that. But I am bemused that, as it stands, we're in 6th place and we seem prepared to do this battle for 4th with 1 striker in our entire squad. That troubles me. Our backs were to the wall with RvP, but try and do the best with the situation that you can. I just can't for the life of me believe that Arsene Wenger can't find a single striker in the world capable of playing for Arsenal and affordable to us too. Particularly when his seeming inability to find anyone is such a repeat theme throughout every window. We're always 2 player short it seems and I think, personally, we'll be punished for it this year, big time.

Might be wenger's way of sending a message to the board tbh. Saying "we knew this would be the case might mean, I told you what would happen. might be a way of getting a message to hit the board, especially with Walcott situation going on.

Amos, i dont pretend to understand much about player contract law, especially anything cobbled together by those clowns at FIFA, but assuming Van Persie was threatening to evoke article 17 to terminate his contract early..wouldnt that have been deemed as for an unjust cause thereby opening up the possibility of compensation to the club? The 'professional' nature of the negotiations between Wenger and Ferguson strike me as simple bargaining behind the scenes. having gone through this mess with Rooney Ferguson would have been well aware of the possibilities and will have used it to his advantage. However i simply cannot believe RVP would have dragged this matter, the club and its fans through the courts. That and the rumours that there had been a change of heart with the player willing to review his decision makes me suspect the club decided to cash in rather than stand on principle.

Absolutely brilliantly explained, Amos. So many of the criticisms that fans come out with are irrational, unfounded or contradicted by the evidence - which is why I reject them. Not because I am too loyal, or a sheep, or a sycophant. Too many of the internet fans accept unquestioningly any criticism or negativity without actually evaluating the substance of them or the source. There seems to be an unconscious assumption that criticism is always objective, therefore must be true. Which is not the case. @ LD, just to add to what Amos said (with which I agree), I think if you put together what we know about AW and how he likes to operate, the position we are in is understandable. AW genuinely rates his players highly, and he only wants to add someone who someone who is significantly better. Therefore, whatever position he is looking to fill, he wants someone close to Dutch Badger/Busquets/Cesc/Kompany/Villa quality, at least potentially. I can fully believe that there is not someone like that around for sale now - mid-season. He also wants his players to get the chance to play, so will not overstock. And of course, he can pay a lot, but not top dollar, so that player as to really really want to come to Arsenal, not just the PL. I do take your point that numerically we are significantly down in the striker position, at least until Gerve comes back from the ACN and in those circumstances AW might want to lower his standards a teeny bit. However, set against that is his propensity to act for the long term. And he won't want to tie up resources in another player who he's not thrilled about rather than having that money available for someone else in the summer. He'll wait.

Its not a question of rejecting an argument, Amos. Its whether one takes a simple black and white view of the options that the club had. Since the club chooses not to tell its fans anything its hardly surprising there are varying opinions on what really happened. How can you be so positive that Van Persie evoked or threatened to evoke Article 17? Ive seen no statement of that as fact so surely you are making an assumption like the rest of us?

Wyn Mills, the options Amos laid out are not his personal view of the club's options. There is law governing the situation, which dictates what our options were. He has merely laid out what they are for your information. And he is able to do that because he has bothered to find out.

if RVP were effectively holding the club to ransom, as you imply, why wouldn't the club reveal this? it would certainly have taken a lot of the heat off and would reflect less negatively on the club. RvP also accompanied the team on pre-season, something I feel doesn't point to a fait d'accompli situation. Why were Wenger and the club also making noises late in the day about keeping RvP 'at all costs' if they knew he was bound to go? Point is Amos, many are asking questions. You are the one who appears to have decided there are no questions to be asked and that the club had no choice. There are no shades of grey in your argument, only the certainty that everyone else must be talking nonsense.

Obviously a gulf in class between you and city :)

Perhaps Juve's scouting team is as poor as Arsenal's if they could only find Bendtner. Which doesn't take away our scouting inefficiency. If there isn't a single striker out there who could improve this squad, then we should be much higher in the table, which we're not.

You'll find Joe that RvP has said himself that he didn't speak to the club about money in which case that can't be claimed as a primary reason. I never claimed that RvP was holding the club to ransom and don't think for a moment he was. That isn't the argument at all. At his age he felt that he couldn't wait another 2 or 3 years at Arsenal in the hope that he would win something. The money would have been useful secondary justification though. I can't blame him or the club for the situation both found themselves in though I can find a lot wrong with football that allowed the situation to develop. The claim levelled against the club was that it was their choice to sell RvP. We know that if RvP wanted to go they had no choice, under Fifa rules, other than to let him go as he was in an unprotected period. We also know that if he wanted to stay that the club could not terminate his contract without his agreement. The only choices open were open to RvP and not to the club. Ergo it couldn't have been the club's choice to sell him as it wasn't a choice they were free to make either way. Now with that simple logic it should be easy enough to decide who is being objective and who isn't. It isn't a lack of will to ask questions of the club that's the failing here. It's the lack of will to question your own prejudices.

I can't recall who said it, but the line 'deploy Amosbot' is the best line written here ever. But what is the Amosbot? It's the predictable voice that will repeat itself over and over and ******** over until either people get bored and give up their argument or . . . no, that's it. But seriously folks, Wenger has surprisingly admitted that he sold the best player in the league because he was powerless to keep him, and that may or may not be true no matter what the Webster ruling might say. I doubt RvP would have invoked it- if he wanted to he could have got out for about £4m and Man U could have added £2m per year to his contract and still saved £12m. That tells me he wouldn't have done it so Arsene flinched and all of Amos's 'contract law' stuff was accurate but irrelevant. Now we have three centre backs, one is suspended so we have two for Swansea. Good ones, but we are an injury away from disaster. Arsene says we have a complete squad and a balanced one. We have neither. I hope we have some things in the hopper and a couple of players will be coming in. If not, hello Thursday night football. All these names bandied about, I think our only signing this month will be Carlton Cole, and it will be a Gazidis signing much like Park and much like Park Wenger won't play him. I didn't used to be this cynical, and I don't like it. Wenger is killing me - please go away, I can't take your bull***** anymore.

RvP wouldn't have stayed even if we'd matched ManU's money Joe. He turned down City who apparently offered a good bit more. He's 30 this summer. He probably has about 2 years left at the top level. It'll be 2 or 3 years before Arsenal will be able to compete on a more equitable level. That's why he left. It's not hard to understand his reasoning and not hard to see that sadly there's nothing Arsenal could do to prevent him going.

If you think that RvP could have bought himself out for £4m then you haven't been following the argument or case history at all elbondo. I won't repeat it as you weren't able to follow it first time but it's all still there and there're plenty of resources elsewhere if you did ever want to extend your input beyond the superficial. I quite like Amosbot myself. Less automated than the usual hackneyed, cliched 'spend some *****in' money' tosh that passes for argument but definitely programmed to respond to it. Worth it just for the indignant bluster it generates from those that can't respond in any other way.

It kind of undermines our strategy of increasing revenue to compete with Utd when we sanction the sale of the league's leading striker to them, doesn't it? We are nowhere near to competing with Utd. We are competing with Spurs, Everton and Liverpool.

We couldn't prevent RvP going. Whether he went to City or ManU he was going to go. The preference would have been to get him to go to overseas but there wasn't anyone else willing to pay his 'compensation' for him. What has undermined (albeit in the history of the club only relatively short term) our strategy of increasing revenue is to have allowed others to undermine that strategy with a strategy that can't be sustained. That has been outside our control but football seems to be coming to terms with the damage that is doing not only to us but others as well. There's a discussion on that very topic on the forums if anyone wants to get involved.

yes, the probability was high that rvp was going to leave somehow but couldn't the board show a little more sincerity? offering 1/2 of what the shrek was earning was certainly an insult. the again, the argument of age will prop up. i'd say players nowadays are much fitter and have a longer career compared to a decade ago. furthermore, rvp's strengths are his technique, finishing, intelligence and positioning, not physical prowess or speed, thus his career would probably last till say 35. the board has to stop treating players nearing 30 like garbage

In 5 or 6 years are we honestly gonna be competing in transfers with the likes of Chelsea, Utd, City etc? I don't think we will, there'll be some ways round this FFP. The only people that this is hitting hard at the moment is the punters that go, I think ticket prices will continue to rise, as I can't see players' wages going down, the whole thing is screwed up. The only winners are that players and people like Kroenke, Gazidis etc, who are earning their money through revenue generation (read fleecing fans) not on pitch success.

The problem for us as a club is if we cannot maximise our commercial revenue it leaves us very vulnerable to falling match-day income on which we are more reliant than most. If the team fail to perform its a possible double whammy of less bums on seats and a less attractive sponsorship package.

I shared the pain of many of us everytime RvP scored but I told myself that if he had stayed, he probably won't be able to score that many and our defense won't be able to protect the lead. We were just a inferior team and there is a huge gap between top 2 and us. So think this way, if we ended up third, we are the champion of the sub BPL.

More indignant bluster elbondo? The history of player contract law didn't end with Webster. There have been some notable rulings since which have an effect on any potential settlement. As the obligation falls onto not just the player to settle the compensation but any club he joins is automatically held jointly liable they have an obvious interest in any potential liability they might incur under national laws of contract as well as Fifa rulings. No club wants a protracted battle on this in large part because courts have looked unfavourably on restriction of freedom of movement and any scrutiny they are subjected too may risk loosening player contract even further (is the difference between protected periods for players under 28 tenable in law?) which isn't in the interests of any major club. There has been a long running case (currently 3 years) where CAS overturned the award made by Fifa's DRC and awarded a much higher compensation than Fifa rules indicated based on the cost of replacing the player and not residual value of the contract. That in turn was overturned in March of last year (presciently for RvP) by the Swiss Supreme Court on the basis that there has to be a relationship between the abilities of the parties to pay any compensation. That doesn't necessarily make it higher or lower than the CAS award but currently the potential for a large payment is still there. One basis on which a 'selling' club can challenge the level on payment is the value of his new contract. So if, for example City were offering him £15m a year, plus a payment (transfer fee) to the selling club of £15m then that could put the 'compensation' at £30m (less what the club would have paid him if he'd seen out his contract say £5m in wages) = £25m. Perhaps less if the principle of amortisation can be successfully applied. No one can be too sure of the precise numbers in any individual case, which is rather the point really, but you can appreciate why it is better for all concerned to reach an agreement rather than risk arbitration or the hazards of litigation. At the same time the club can't prevent a player from leaving they can only seek to reach agreement on the compensation. Hope that's not too repetitive for you - any condescension was intentional ;) BTW where did I say you said 'spend some effing money'?

Will forever find it hard to get over RvP's sale to Utd and here's why. If this were simply a question of money RvP would have ended up at City, and to some extent this would have been easier pill to swallow. The fact that we sold to Utd, a club not doped to the eyeballs on sugar daddy cash, means it really comes down to ambition, and its here we've been found wanting. Even if it made short term commercial sense it's the sporting equivalent of raising the white flag and pulling down your own trousers. Totally bonkers and the perfect justification to RvP for leaving. Who can forget Wenger's immortal word's “If [Fabregas and Nasri leave] you cannot pretend you are a big club. Because a big club first of all holds onto its big players.” When your manage utters that and then you watch talent seep away from the club you can only reach one conclusion. It was surely Gazidis' job to take RvP to one side and tell him that frankly the move to Utd was impossible, and by the way we have your wife and child hostage.

Amos wrote: Hope that's not too repetitive for you - any condescension was intentional ;) So, you are admitting that in your mind you are superior to me? Are you a Spud cuz you sure are delusional. Oh, I get it, a smiley at the end means you are just being endearing. Not. As for Amos wrote: BTW where did I say you said 'spend some effing money'? Well, you didn't, but you used the oft used media trick of putting two things together that don't go together or may not even be related so that anybody who is in any way distracted might put them together and think, "Oh, elbondo is one of those spend some fecking money" people (I'm not) so Amos is right. Don't get me wrong - I appreciate your insight and you often put a spin on things so that even simpletons like I can grasp a small percentage of your all-seeing knowledge. What I don't appreciate is your subtle and not-so-subtle put-downs of anybody who doesn't agree with you (i.e. almost everybody). Your opinion is valid, your knowledge is admirable, your behaviour is not worthy of a mod. When VA was looking for new mods, I was all for Louisa but preferred the abrasive yet humble Goofle/Tom14 to you. I didn't actually know who you were when you were appointed as you hadn't made a post at that time, or if you had it wasn't memorable. I'm done on this thread, so until next time, stay well.

Fun, we'll have to go our separate ways on this. My post is about ambition , not money. I've never believed the choice was as stark as some make out (ie: no choice). The club has exercised its option to sell, and in doing so have not only taken the easy way out but also displayed the same lack of ambition which has resulted in that player's departure. For someone who believes so strongly in the sanctity of honouring one's contract I find it surprising that Wenger has such a poor record in getting his players to honour theirs. I’m also not sure you can lay the blame entirely at the feet of ‘greedy players’. Whatever the various scare stories RvP was still a player under contract. Whether he would have evoked the Webster ruling or not is pure conjecture, although one has to question whether Ferguson would have paid more than he would need to if the suspicion was the player was planning to buy out his contract. The unquestionable fact is RvP had a contract with this club until the end of this season and one of the options open to the club, given our historical failure to tie him down for a longer deal in the first place, would have been to ask him to see it out. (the club really need to sort out longer contract lengths as well as the wage structure) Sometimes you just have to stand your ground and make it clear you will not be bossed by players, or you will forever be at the mercy of agents and predatory clubs. On slightly improved terms I have no reason to believe the player wouldn’t have continued to give 100%, knowing he had to keep himself in the shop window. There’s also the chance he may have changed his mind. Its not unknown. His value to the club? Obviously his goals making the difference in us achieving a CL place once more and the revenue from that of £40m+. If we fail to achieve this at the end of the season and factor in his sale we will stand to lose considerably more than we have gained. I’m not so sure this is such the good business its made out to be. And that’s not even touching on the commercial sponsorship repercussions. The club might well still lose money if we fail to qualify AND have lost the player at the end of the season, but that’s a risk we no longer appear willing or able to take.

Amos, I prefer to use the expression 'buying out his contract'. :)

Prits, What did he actually say in that statement? He said I'm not renewing my contract. Where does this translate into I want to go immediately to United? Read between the lines if you want but there was nothing else conclusive in that statement except I have huge respect for Wenger and the fans but I disagree with the direction the club is going and I'll hold more talks with Gazidis when he gets back. Perhaps I am naive, but tell me what I'm missing.

The point is that in an unprotected period of the contract you can just walk away. It doesn't need any negotiation. You just tell the club that's what you're going to do. Any negotiation might start from that point but that's what his advisors (Darren Dein included) in this case would have done for him. (Any significance that Song was the last remaining player involved with Dein jnr? Clichy and Cesc were also on his books). The club would have started the negotiation much earlier of course but once he says 'I don't wish to discuss it until the summer' (when the protected period expires) they'll have known what was coming even if they harboured hopes they might have persuaded him to stay. Time to call time on this I think. We'll all believe what we believe I guess.

I had a good holiday somewhere sunny and fun paying full attention to the wife and kids. i could barely steal glances at the site with all the activity lined up. to be honest, I really did look forward to reading about new signings, by this time so as to make the team a bit more competitive than it is now. The confidence is seeping away with each big game lost and things just aren't looking as best as they could. Here's hoping Wenger has a couple lined up. Why do I feel our manager is waiting for all the good available players to be taken so he can tell us how hard he tried but just couldn't find the right ones?