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Mad Dogs & Englishmen

Right, I have broached this subject in the past and have been shot down in flames, usually by our loyal foreign fans, but does anybody else feel that we should be snapping up some of the English talent around, or is 'talent' too strong a word to use for the current crop of English players?

What do you think?

Personally, I remember seeing Arsenal Vs France at highbury in 1989 (yes, France. They had a game against Scotland coming up and wanted some decent warm up opposition). If I remember rightly we outplayed them for the whole game but they scored a very late equalizer.

At the time, David O'Leary was substituted and Steve Bould came on and the chant around the ground was 'Robson, pick them all, Robson Robson pick them all!' as all 11 on the pitch were English and were blowing away a very good French team.

Since then we have had a few notable Englishman in our team but they are getting less and less. Theo Walcott and Hoyte are our only two now and I think we could do with some more for many different reasons.

I know it is probably right to pick up the best WORLD talent and that English players are over-priced, but I would really love to see more Arsenal players in an England shirt.

Anyone else?


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The Journalist

Writer: Vital Arsenal Member: BigDanny Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Sunday July 8 2007

Time: 2:16PM

Your Comments

not again the same debate... expect an influx of over-zealous spuds on speed here. don't say I didn't warn you.
G4L
we've been down this road many times. lets not open it again..
luckys_10
I personally think that even though there are some cracking English players, by and large English players are very overrated, indeed the PL only became the best league in the world after the influx of foreign players. And why pay 16.5Million for a Darren Bent when you can get a Robin van Persie for £2.5M?
Rocky7
Doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to me. But then I'm not English, but saying that, the fact that there are no players of my own nationality in the squad, doesn't bother me in the slightest either. I personally think that club football and national football are two seperate entities and should be observed that way. In fact I find that International football is a pain in the butt, espescially when half the squad comes back injured.
flv
You are mssing some english sprit in the team,somthing that will know how to play with the english way and knows the pride of Arsenal football club.rememeber you do have the best youth academy in this country if not europe/world and you do produce alot of english players however they are just not good enough and instead of keepin them at the club and never really start.arsene releases them and they can continue there career elsewere instead of bein wasted.Arsenal could have a full squad of more than 22 all english players but...you would not be anywere near the level you are currently.
upthedale
Some good points there upthedale. The growing trend seems to be that players are now loyal to their team mates and managers rather than thier clubs, which is my one and only criticism for a few of the Arsenal players.
Rocky7
manutds youth academy has closed down and stopped producing english players. They had to settle for big money english signings. Take a look at those english players wearing manutd shirt and currently playing for england. Hargreaves, carrick rooney and rio. Money spent in getting these players could have been used to buy a feeder football club. Dont even get me started on chelsea.
49ers
I think that Englich players might not be overated but they definatley over priced. With our tight budget we can not afford to dish out an extra 6.5 mil pounds on a player like Bent, when he is only worth around 10. And Rocky said it all, we spent 2.5 mil on RVP and Spurs spent 16.5 on Bent. To use an old cliche foreign players give you more quality for the money. And what team is upthedale support because he talks alot of sense. He cant be a spurs supporter can he?
gunnerkid107
i've got no more energy to comment on this topic.. this door's been opened many a times before by are unrespected, scum and the other half of north london football fraternity.. if u could call what they play "football".. anyways.. the point is.. yet again.. there's no need for english players.. u dont need bent for 16. when u have da silva for 8.. i can bet that bent the sp*d and torres of the loserfool are going to be down the list as compared to dudu in the scoring charts come the end of the season.. au revoir.. for now.. Goon-o-centric4life..
go4it_adi
49ers, I think you forgot about Gary Neville, Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs (who was English when he joined the academy). The actual fee for Bent was somewhere between £13.5m and £15.5m. His fee is also based on the goals he has scored in the Premiership for an average team. The only league considered to be slightly more difficult than the Premiership is Spain. Considering how much you have paid for Eduardo and the league he has scored his goals in, the price for Torres and what Bent has cost, it all balances up to the same - anything else is mere conjecture. The comparison of RvP is erroneous - they don't actually play in the same position. RvP is a support striker/left winger in the manner of Bergkamp/Reyes.
kernowboy
It may be a reflection of football today but when you bring through English players you often to do so from a very early age. Players hold up the likes of Fabregas as an illustration of the strength of an academy but it is actually highlighting a weakness. Fabregas was ALMOST a finished article when he joined Arsenal, all the formative work having been done at Barcelona, the same with Pique and Man Utd. As these leagues start closing the loopholes that allow their 16-17 year olds to get poached internationally, then there will have to be a fall back onto domestic players. It is teams like Leeds United and Middlesborough who constantly develop top youngsters who have the best academies. Why do you think Arnesen has made such effort to get the likes of Woods and Sinclair into the Chavski academy? Once the new rules in Europe come into place it will be a steady slide to a more 50/50 balance between national and imported players.
kernowboy
scholes isn't considered english anymore...he is not playing for england. soon neville will stop playing for england. Face it, manutd's academy has closed down and they only rely on big priced english players in other to have english players.
49ers
kernowboy, RVP is not a support striker. he is equally good on the wing as he is when he plays as an out and out striker. bent at that price is crap compared to RVP..
luckys_10
So support striker/left winger Van Persie scored three less goals than out and out striker Bent, in less than half the appearances, but we can't compare them kernowboy? I wonder why eh?
flv
Since RVP was bought prices have gone up across the board, a natural inflation. And since when has RvP been a 'lead the line' striker like Henry or Drogba? You bought RvP in 2004, for £2.5m, Bent was bought by Charlton for £2.75m in 2005. Do you think you could buy RvP for £2.5m now - you wouldn't get change from £15m. And whilst RvP scores a goal once every 3 games, Bent is almost on a goal every other game ratio. Considering he achieved this playing for Charlton, I think fans underestimate that achievement.
kernowboy
That 50/50 nationality law will never be passed in the UK due to our laws on equal opportunities.
flv
flv ... maybe you want to look at the deal that UEFA has done with EC before offering your opinion. They even offer it in languages other than English to aid your comprehension. Football along with other sports has gained an exemption to the rules of equal opportunities as it is felt that in the area of sport, the comprehensive application of existing equal opportunity laws damages the foundations of the sports involved, often having a negative impact on social issues. Within a season or two, UEFA are introducing rules concerning players in a squad having had to have come through either the teams academy or an academy in the Associations area they represent. With the Spanish, French and Italian FAs and clubs closing their loopholes on poaching the likes of Fabregas, clubs in the UK will have to sign these players when 12-13 rather than 16-17. For example I think in Spain, players couldn't be offered a pro contract until they turned 18 but this rule is being changed to allow Spanish clubs to offer pro contracts earlier. Once this has started, it will be easy for the rule to be extended from 8 out of squad of 25, to 13 out of 25 as the political will to oppose it will have gone.
kernowboy
Looks like we'll be making even younger signings to get them through the academy loophole then 8-). On a serious note, if they start restructuring the UK's grass roots level coaching, as is being discussed, by the time all these rules are pushed through (I'm still a bit pessimistic on that front) there might be enough good UK players coming through, to go around. That way, nobody has to waste 16.5m of their transfer kitty on an average English striker, so it's all good!
flv
The Uefa rules have nothing to do with nationality. If they did it would fall foul of EU and National Law. It only refers to where players have trained. Second though it might be recommended that the rules be employed by national leagues they only apply to Uefa competitions. It will make little difference to the way we operate the academy though it is clear that other teams are more protective of their young talent ultimately all that will do is force up the cost rather than extinguish the supply.
Amos.
Sincerely,this is a very important issue but frm a foreign perspective,i've often argued wit ma friends dat new generation of english playas are just average(Not offence) but realistically it's the truth,Brazillians are the best exports anywhere soccer is played in d world but would yu tell me how many english playas play outside their shores?..dis speaks for itself,would yu say bent is better than RVP or Benni or Yak or Martins..? but yet he's talked about like a God..maybe the emphasis should shift to technical development rather than sentiments and ratings....My Opinion!
Specialist2
Real Madrid have confirmed their interest in Arsenal star Cesc Fabregas. Fabregas's future at Arsenal has been the subject of conjecture following Thierry Henry's departure from Emirates Stadium. Another one bites the dust! Who`s next??????
cockeril
after a nights full of gluing his feathers back on the cock-drilled is back for some more... LOL
G4L
watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEpN02TG-EE
Spartan Gooner
We have no Englishmen as they are girlyboys!
Goofle
cockeril, stop sucking...
Goofle
An average striker who when the quality of the leagues are taken into account represents the same value as Eduardo. Regarding youth players if you want to go cradle snatching round Europe thats your business. Again there is plenty of English talent - Wenger is just to stupid, lazy, anti English to develop it. And when's he managing in Spain a number of your players will be looking to join him. I see he's been offered £14m over 4 years but an annual opt out has to be included. So much for commitment to the club
kernowboy
and just a personal opinion, if you cannot put out a team where 25% of the players can represent the National Association in who's league they play .. i.e. England ... then they should not be allowed to take that national associations places awarded for international competition. The National Association have a responsibility not just to run the league but also to the national team ... it is a matter of record, when the Italian Association banned foreign players in the 1970s, this directly raised led to Italy winning the 1982 World Cup. Italian players then improved because there was a strict limit put on the number of foreigners who could play in the league, meaning young Italians improved by playing with the best foreign players, not the dross that is frequently imported these days. 4 players in a weekend squad of 16 - surely only the most pathetic of managers could not achieve that minor figure?
kernowboy
Should all the players have blonde hair and blue eyes too kernow?
flv
Firstly, should Wenger decide to renew his contract it won't have a release clause in it. He never allows it for players, so wouldn't do it himself. As anyone that actually knows the guy will tell you, he is either committed or he isn't. He won't work under half measures, but if you choose to believe a rag then thats your problem.......Secondly, have a look around the premiership clubs & for that matter the rest of the leagues & see just how many english players arsenal have allowed to leave for next to nothing in order to have a career, which will ultimately benefit the national side. If Wenger doesn't feel that the british players we have are good enough technically for the first team, then why should he play them??.............Finally, anyone who tries to defend Bent's price on the grounds that he scored goals at charlton would appear to know very little about football. Just like Kevin Phillips at Sunderland, the whole team was set up to supply him, now that he is at spuds that wont be the case & he won't be a regular. Therefore he will have more pressure on him & so far whenever thats happened, he has looked out of place, ie his first game for england. Torres has scored goals at the highest level as has Eduardo, Bent has not. Therefore you cannot relate his price with that of proven players!!
Ashburton Gooner
I reckon Henry to win Golden boot LA LIGA is about to be set on fire!!!
cockeril
Well according to UEFA ... the Premiership is about as high as it gets especially compared to the Croatian League ... and wasnt all of Dinamo Zagreb and Croatia's play set up for Eduardo? A player who has consistently scored in the Premiership for 24 months will do nicely ... how many goals has Eduardo scored in the Premiership?
kernowboy
I know that your fat ass goalie still has nightmares of this guy and his team. Swing and a miss in pure spud fashion.
gunnerkid107
Interesting comment flv ... not quite sure why you would be so unintelligent and stupid to make it ... many people in football including, players, managers, chairmen, the good and great of the game and increasingly politicians think that football should have an exemption and because of the behaviour of certain teams, quotas have to be installed to give youngsters an opportunity to succeed than compel them to travel hundreds of miles ... are these people, better people than you'll ever be, in favour of only those with blonde hair and blue eyes................................................the fact you cannot be asked to support a local team but leach onto a successful team like a parasite, tells everyone what they need to know about you. You're not a genuine football supporter, just following the local fashion. Two more seasons and you'll be following Man U or Chavski !!!!!!!! ............................................... another example would be Scotland. Here they have insisted on a minumum number of young Scots at the very least on the clubs' bench and all of a sudden they get to EuroU19 finals and the WorldU20 finals
kernowboy
FLV The bridge is not too far!
cockeril
Kernowboy, The Scots are getting their ass kicked in those finals. America only has about 10 players in their U-20 squad that are professional players. The rest are college kids. And they are kicking everyones ass even Brazil. So the Scots are just putting ***** quality on the bench of their clubs to met the rules. So is that what you want. Downgrade the overall quality of the EPL to help the nations national team. Doesnt sound like the best idea to me.
gunnerkid107
At least they made it ... and they were praised by all at the Euro U19s for the way they performed. There is NO quality in the EPL if it doesn't benefit the English game. No-one is arguing there should be a ban on overseas players ... the problem is all the marginal players coming in. If there was a limit even a generous one of 75% teams would be compelled to properly develop young English players rather than go through the motions .. if all these overseas players were so great you'd have won the Premiership by 30pts last season but they are not. And it should be noted, that having been forced to develop young Scottish players, the likes of Celtic and Rangers have done better in European club competition than in reason times.
kernowboy
Many people in football think that do they kernowboy? Does that include the French Director of Football at your place or the Dutch manager? Maybe the Dutch skills coach or the Dutch Goalkeeping coach? Perhaps they should all give way for the glorious good of English nationals to prevent them damaging the game. This narrow parochial view of the world is nonsense. Why should someone from Lancashire or Yorkshire feel any greater affinity for a London club than someone from Normandy or Tuscany? If you are a genuine football supporter then it is the game and team you enjoy not whatever flag or passport its individual members might hold.
Amos.
So what you want is 4 of the 16 squad members in a EPL match to be English. So these 4 spots are not based on ability but nationality. Sounds like discrimination to me.
gunnerkid107
Again Amos, people are talking about minimum requirements to help the domestic game. The Frenchman, and Dutchmen have signed both overseas and English players. Of course the inbred hatred of all things English at Arsenal and its apologists of a fan base wouldn't comprehend this. Hey lets get rid of a domestic league ... why not try to have a pan European competition and those 72 clubs not in the Premiership, close them all down? And while we are it, lets stop having teams and have franchises like in the states so we can move the teams all round Europe for a quick Euro and ***** the genuine fans!! Genuine fans were disgusted when Wimbledon relocated to become the MK Dons. I bet there wasn't one of you lot amongst them - if local fans can't support local teams from the local area then it will be the start of the slow death of the game as we know it.
kernowboy
It may be discrimination gunnerkid107 but denying local kids an opportunity based on their nationality is also discrimination. You obviously go on holiday when England play and have no interested in the Euro Champs or World Cup
kernowboy
The reason that I posed the question, childish as it was, is that you come accross as being totally anti foreign. To be honest, your comments about leaching up to a team that I'm not local to makes me a parasite, supports that. The Premiership is screened to a worldwide audience and Arsenal's fanbase is 27 million. This means that the majority of Arsenal fans are not supporting their local team. That's a lot of parasites. My guess is that spurs and every other club in the Premiership has their equal share of parasites too. Just remember that these parasites play their part in boosting your clubs funds very season. For your information, I started supporting Arsenal in 1987 due to a strange twist of fate that I won't bore you with. At that time the popular clubs were Everton and Liverpool. I also go to, on average 3-4 matches a year. I'd like to go to more but my budget, and ticket demand have a large part to do with that.
flv
It was childish as a minimum quota was advocated meaning at least some domestic players are given a REAL opportunity, to ensure that only the best players come to the Premiership not mercenary trash ... local kids growing up in Hackney and Islington deserve the chance to develop their skills, not get crowded out before they've had the chance. Again, domestic leagues are run by National Associations who have the responsibility to the National Team as well. If a team cannot contribute a single national player in the Match day 16 then it is not a smear on the standard of English kids, its a matter of shame for that club and its anti English manager - this idea of players not being good enough is horse*****..... why should these clubs take the places of teams in European club competition who are prepared to invest in English football? If you'd give for example Bentley 20games in the Premiership and said he was not good enough then fair enough .. but you didn't - and we all know friendlies and training aren't the same as the real thing.
kernowboy
How local is a local player playing for a local team? Is South London Darren Bent local? Or Tom Huddlestone? Jermaine Jenas? Michael Dawson? Aaaron Lennon? What have any of them got to do with a local club? What radius do you draw around the ground to decide whether they are local or not?
Amos.
You just disproved your whole point when you metioned bentley. He wasnt thriving at Arsenal so we gave him away and let him thrive somewhere else. Same with Sidwell and maybe even Pennant. And at least we have a farm system unlike Man U. And i live in America but my family is English and I attended the England vs Portugal match of the World Cup in Gemany so stop making ignorant accusations.
gunnerkid107
This is a debate I really can't be arsed to have again. My only comment would be to say I don't give a ***** where Arsenal's players come from, just like I don't give a ***** where my friends come from. Next time you need treatment in hospital kernowboy, I hope that should a non national nurse offer to sew a limb back to your blood soaked body, I hope you'll sit back down in the waiting room and kindly request that you can wait and be seen by an English nurse. Judging anyone by national criteria is a frustratingly myopic viewpoint. If you were to fall in love with the woman of your dreams and she reciprocated those feelings, and you felt this enormous connection with that person, would you turn her down for the girl next door on the basis of geography?
Little Dutch
I might also ask who Tottenham's academy has produced for the national team in the last ten years. Ledley King and.................?
Little Dutch
fat robbo isn't one?
k_chelski
Well, recent u17 Euro Finals, Spain beat England 1-0. Arsenal had 4 players playing for England, and one for Spain. The trouble is that people lok at the current squad, and accuse Arsenal of "hating English players" etc, but don't actually have enough knowledge of Arsenals youthb setup to realise that we are constantly producing young English players. IIRC, the England under 16 team recently had 5 or 6 Arsenal players playing in a competitive match as well. The biggest problem does not seem to be that they are not good enough, but rather their attitude is not right for our manager. Unlike other managers, Wenger will not take the misbehaviour that other managers tolerate (e.g. pennant), and would rather be shot than have a troublesome player. It does strike me as particularly instersting that to my knowledge the players taht have been jettisoned for attitude problems are exclusively English. I have every confidence that we will have the players required to meet the UEFA rules on players etc, as we are now starting to see the benefits of changes to our youth setup made 6-7 years ago.
wembley79
i thought fat robbo was the mascot - he waddles like someone in a fatsuit, i naturally assumed tha's what he was... »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
effin hypocrites that's what the sp*rs fans are. An embodiment of an inferiority complex that has been nurtured within their pathetic ground for years and years. All these rants about Arsenal's alleged anti-Englishness and local team development are as empty as their trophy cabinet. They have witnessed their team lose and draw and then lose some more so many times, especially against Arsenal, it has left massive consequences on their perception of reality. Absolutely nothing to show for, the spuds are now clutching straws with arguments such as this nationality quotas crap, beating their chest with the bunch of average-talented overpaid Englishmen and a large contingent of foreigners, who in no terms are similar to the ones at Arsenal they love to call mercenaries. Just because they play for the lasagne masters. The sad fact is that probably one or two players from that fantastic 2-times-in-a-row-5th-placed team could make the squad at Arsenal, and yes mes amis, they are not English. They made shirts after they beat the Chavs, and when the day comes and by some strange non-footballing reason they beat the Arsenal - we can probably expect a parade, followed by massive riots, demonstration and perhaps which in turn will be proposed as a holiday.
G4L
Kernowboy - a time-waster whose pathetic drivel ends in insults about our manager and anti-Britishness… a major resentment is eating you up judging by your recent posts... it hurts that England is doing pants (clue: there’s a pants manager in charge) and you also hurt that we don’t share your valuation that Bent is worth £15.5m (give us a break)… Arsenal of course are indirectly to blame for all this, and because nobody supports these strops you gradually turn into the footballing version of Enoch Powell… the FA makes the rules on nationalities, not us – have you written to them or gone to their forums to argue the toss? Arsenal have elevated the attractiveness of English football, so now some kids who may aspire to play the beautiful game can join a Sunday league where it will get beaten out of them by the ‘lump it upfield’ brigade, nurtured and sponsored by the unimaginative cowards at the FA. Instead of posting again, you could write down all your dumb rants on paper and roll them up nice and tight before using them to robustly whack your friend cockeril and yourself round the back of the head.
Andy-bayor
They made shirts, Dvds, cds. And a catchy phrase : "remember, remember, the fith of november". This is what it said in a spud site : "In the fith of november Martin Jol's team made history, by beating chelsea at White Hart Lane, after 17 years( I think,or more). " Manchester made history by winning the tremble, Arsenal made history by going undefeated. Chelsea made history by keeping a record of clean sheets and less goals conceded and most points won. SPUDS made history by beating chelsea at their own ground. That.Is.The.Difference.
k_chelski
Deja Vu?? Typical Sir_Harry type argument, not even worth going there. k_chelski, fat robbo was of Leeds Utd descent, although some may argue, his flab has been grown and nutured in Tottenham Hotspurts Academy... so that ALMOST makes him a product of the mighty Spurts!
tikabooson
Spuds dont have an academy. They have a group of homosexuals that bum...
Goofle
Wenger for England Anyone???
cockeril
Chelsea made history buy having the 1st Russian Mafia Sugar Daddy.
cockeril
A foreign manager? For England?? *gasp* Thats absurd!! Don't you think kernow-patrioticboy won't mind?
tikabooson
generally, english players cannot fit into Wengers desired style of play. their lack of technique compared to foreigners makes it difficult for them to fit in at Arsenal. even leading english players such as Lampard and Gerrard arnt technically good players like Fabregas or Hleb. Players should be selected on merit, not nationallity.
Aussie Gooner
Though it's true that Wenger's anti-English agenda is clear for all to see. He couldn't wait to get rid of Seaman, Adams, Keown, Winterburn and Dixon, and it's not like he sped up the evolution of English football or anything with his dietary and fitness regimes. It's also not like he's awarded Justin Hoyte a huge new contract, nor would he be interested in paying £12m for a young English talent like Walcott.
Little Dutch
kernowboy--f... you and D.Bent... your are a lunatic..you hate everybody and i think you hate yourself!!!!!? you are so clever and knows everything..... hold on with conclusions for few months and than we will see who is right...OK
andy croat 27
"Next time you need treatment in hospital kernowboy, I hope that should a non national nurse offer to sew a limb back to your blood soaked body, I hope you'll sit back down in the waiting room and kindly request that you can wait and be seen by an English nurse." YES LITTLE DUTCH .. THEY MAY TRY TO BLOW ME UP IN A TERRORIST OUTRAGE INSTEAD !!!! - one or two players who fall into Wengers lap by accident doesn't change a policy. The bottom line is UEFA/EC have already started to change the rules, favouring players who have gone through an academy in the domestic league where a team plays. Added to the changes in the rules in the French, Spanish and Italian leagues, you're not going to be able to poach under aged kids from around the world like some slightly dodgy pied piper. You boast about your academy but in reality 90% of the work done with the likes of Fabregas was done by someone else. And Andy Croat 27, **** back to supporting one of your local teams, because I think you are the one who's ashamed of your nationality.
kernowboy
Funny thing about all this is we are the ones who pay the hard cash to wear the shirt, watch the team and buy the merchandise, so why should we have some smarmy git dictating to us what nationallity our players are when us, the actual punter, don't mind where our players are from. You pay to walk into a cinema to watch a new Hollywood blockbuster and there are no English in the cast. What are you gonna do, rip up your tickets and walk out in disgust? Entertainment is what it's all about. I pay my money and I watch some fantastic football. What could possibly be so wrong with that?
flv
Well flv, for a start, many foreigners appear to be potential suicide bombers!
Andy-bayor
Yeah, I noticed that comment Andy! Funny thing is, we're such a multi cultural bunch, both players and fans, yet for all the so called parasites and suicide bombers that are amongst us, you never see us in the news for causing trouble.
flv
kernowboy, if you weren't so blinded by ignorance and stupidity, you'll find that andy da croat is a supporter of Dinamo Zagreb - and is here lending his support to their ex-captain. you're a qualified idiot as you keep banging on the academy issues at times when sp*rs have no academy products since god knows when and are inclined to 'snatching' youngsters and alleged 'talents from other clubs. Since most of the youngsters in Arsenal's team have come through our academy, I'd think you're the ones in deep *****. Your stupidity is further displayed by the claim that 90% of the work with Cesc was done - had he stayed at Barca he would have NEVER played as much, he would have never furthered his footballing education and would have been shiped after 2-3 years to some 2nd rate club in Spain
G4L
You're remarks are not only ignorant and distasteful kernowboy but also wrong. UEFA have changed rules which have no affect on the nationality of players in a team and a 'home grown' player is anyone, wherever he is from, that has trained within academies in a domestic league for 3 years between the ages of 15 & 21. In any case it only affects players in a 25 man squad for UEFA competitions. You can still field a team of 11 imports if you wish even in UEFA competitions. The EC aren't changing any rules at all. It is still illegal to refuse or prevent EC citizens from working anywhere within the EC. The rule changes governing youth players in some European leagues enables them to offer professional terms earlier but doesn't prohibit anyone else offering them either. We can quite happily carry on just as we are which is recruiting and developing players based on their talent and ability not simply satisfying some moronic nationalistic chanting.
Amos.
Could (Sir) Kernowboy please explain to us how Cashley, when he was a gooner was the best left back in the world? How did he manage this with the evil Arsene not playing him because he's English? If your good enough and your attitude is right you play, end of. Now go back to the cock site and salivate over ur glorious list of English players such as Jermaine Jenas.
iceman10
Thanks G4L.... in some things kernowboy have right, maybe you have to much players from other countries,(not just in arsenal, maybe thats is the reason for some bad results in international competitions for England)... but he don't have respect for players who plays in Arsenal right now... I don't say that Eduardo is the best player or that he is new TH...that we will see, give him chance to show what he knows..... AW watched him over one year, he knows what he doing.....
andy croat 27
Who out of all current English players would you have playing at Arsenal BigDanny? and at the expense of what current Arsenal player?, would you really want to see an Arsenal player(s) humiliated ritually every two years when they turn out for the terminal embarassment that is Ingerland. Really Englands style of play is the Anti Arsenal whilst their players are grossly over inflated in value or in the case of Robinson just inflated. I would'nt pi$$ on any of the English players Trottybum have; Jenas, King Sicknote, Blobbo, Dewoe, utter *****eshower of the highest order, if these gimps were any more pedestrian theyd have their own personal feckin lollypop lady. I also would'nt want our players tainted by that half wit McClown. ***** England.
nikolaijns
.... which if you bother to read my Post correnctly AMOS .. combined with the changes instigated in the Football Associations of Spain, Italy and France will make it extremely difficult for 16-18years olds to get poached so clubs will have to fall back on domestic youngsters. The EC rules ARE changing because they are now introducing rules on having been developed by a clubs own/or a domestic academy ... ARE YOU SO STUPID YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? ... they are already pulling back from the totally open arrangements previously undertaken. Previously it was 25 players in your CL squad whatever .... in 3-4 years time it will be 17 players from wherever, 4 players from a clubs own academy and 4 players from any academy in a domestic league. Added to the increasing difficulty of signing foreign 16-18 years old due to changes in European domestic league. The EC is pulling back and once the door is open, other initatives will be attempted.
kernowboy
Andy Croat, I have respect for certain players in the Arsenal team, but the complete lack of respect for Darren Bent is somewhat surprising. He has done extremely well for a medium, to lower table, and is getting judged on virtually on 1 international that cretinous moron Eriksson gave him. Eduardo has scored zero goals in the Premiership. If he has a decent season it will be a good buy .. if he scores 3 and Bent 15 then he will be a crap buy .. everything thought Shevchenko would be an awesome signing. Paying the going rate for a developing player who has average over 15 goals a season (almost a goal every other game) and who will still attract a decent fee in 4 years time is good business. What these cretins fail to understand is if you slag off one player, you'll get your player slagged off.
kernowboy
...whereas the spuds have 1 own academy player and 31 from academies all around the world and England. talk about digging your own hole
G4L
If Little Dutch wants to tell me how much I'd want to be treated in hospital by an exclusively English doctor/nurse with such a sweeping statement, I'll simply take the time to remind him of some recent news ... likewise attempting to draw parallels between normal life and football, shows that he has in fact go no answer for the actual statement made.
kernowboy
Maybe the so-called bad attitude of the English players in your academy is not so much a symptom of them, byt symptomatic of your coaching staff and management. Its amazing how the likes of Ferguson, Mourinho, O'Neill can bring along both Engish and non-English juniors yet Wenger cannot. Instead of blaming the so-called bad attitude, wonder why this happens apparently time and time again.
kernowboy
No-one is stating that Spurs do not have players in their side from their academy in their team. Poor management of the club over the previous 5-10 years has caused this. What I am curious to know is 'have Arsenal suffered appalling bad luck in being able to develop any youngsters from England apart from Ashley who was driven out of your club or is it merely incomptence and a system of selection which favours non-English youngsters?' If your non English youngsters so wondeful why aren't you winning the Premiership by 30 points?
kernowboy
Iceman10, thanks for the Knighthood (Sir). I assume its for services in the defence of talented young English players
kernowboy
So what if they oblige clubs to field English and academy contingents? If as you said earlier, Wenger is stupid, lazy, and anti English, he will have single-handedly destroyed English football before the rules come in! You should run for Prime Minister then you could personally deport him... when it's all said and done, that is the level of your diatribe, and your attempts at reasoned debate are just a front... I'm not the only one that thinks you sound like a seething nationalist rather than a patriot.
Andy-bayor
If you genuinely only have 1 player from your own academy, and you're on here posting this rubbish, you need to go and support Plymouth Argyle and stop being a total hypocrite.
Andy-bayor
.... no, I am a Patriot but we all know every single person who drags their sorry arse to the Emirates is not, doesn't consider themselves English, and are ashamed of the passport they are 'forced' to carry
kernowboy
Good point kernowboy, don't you just hate it when people make sweeping general statements in defence of their "point." Unlike your last post there, where you sensibly deconstruct the points made. Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious, where somebody comes from is as relevant as their eye or hair colour. I'm glad I don't have to have this debate face to face with you kernowboy, otherwise I've the distict impression I'd be ducking chairs like a Spanish policeman.
Little Dutch
Yep, at least you prove the seething nationalism. Gunners are the same as any other fans in the country... except because of the London effect we may not be Little Englanders like you. Patriots don't try and ram their lowest-common-denominator garbage down other people's throats like you.
Andy-bayor
Was it an English or American poet who said: “Patriotism is the last refuge of the kernowboy.”?
Andy-bayor
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" .. tell that to your American supporters who admirably so have great virtue in Patriotism .. wasn't Thomas Payne your hero? .. how ironic his words and pamphlets created a society where patriotism is a virtue. A Patriot is a person who vigorously defends their country and way of life ... no point is ever made of eye or hair colour and if you'd get off your lazy pathetic worthless moronic arse and bother to read any of the preceding posts, no remarks was ever made regarding race, colour of a person's skin and it reveals your absolute desperation by trying to imply otherwise.... in fact foreign players are welcomed but not at the expense of the 100% subjugation of domestic players. But being such a narcassistic individual, you don't actually feel the need to read previous posts to know you're right. Now run along and put all your fellow Gooners to sleep with one of your inciteful threads.
kernowboy
Ah Sir Harry, you just gave yourself away didn't you? As I said to you last time Harry, I never cited Payne as a hero, I quoted him once which you took great offence to Sir Harry. To refresh your memory, that quote was "the world is my country, all mankind is my brethren and to do good is my religion." The point about eye colour, hair colour etc is a parallel, how is nationality any different? It's just a detail that's put on your passport as an identifier, it doesn't reveal anything about your personality Harry. It's that American patriotism that is responsible for the annihilation of small countries, sell them guns then blow the ***** out of them for having them, that's the American patriotism you are citing. I suggest you read a book called 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' and perhaps you'll see hw ill founded that patriotism is.
Little Dutch
LMFAO...
k_chelski
Interesting how the moment you are losing an argument you try to imply I'm someone else. Now I understand what Iceman10s (Sir) reference was to ... well if he thought you were a moron then he's a top bloke in my book. There is no parallel between racism and nationality. Many English people of all ethnicity are 'patriots' ... the fact you cannot distiguish between the two shows how lacking in intelligence you are. And how ironic you should equate American patriotism with the conduct of their government. Australians are extremely patriotic and have a more vigorous immigration policy as do Canadians ... does this make all Australians and Canadians racists? The Canadian Football League, actually have a minimum quota of Canadians who sit on their roster ... does this make the racists or do they just want to afford an opportunity to young Canadians that might otherwise be denied as teams decide it is easier and cheaper to import American players ........ just curious to understand that if those who don't agree with you are racists or not?
kernowboy
And interestingly because Australian cricket have restricted overseas players in the Sheffield Shield, this has compelled states to develop their own youngsters. These youngsters have gone on to create possibly the greatest cricket team the world has ever seen creating a sense of patriotism, knitting together a diverse group of people into a greater sense of nationhood, and creating a feel good factor with positive economic repurcussions for large parts of society. How appalling that this outcome was based on a racist (oops sorry) patriotic mentality.
kernowboy
Come along Little Gimp, where r ya? where r ya?
kernowboy
You really are struggling to understand your own points aren't you kernowboy. The EC has nothing whatsoever to do with the rules organised for Uefa competitions. Their only interest is in ensuring that they do not breach EC laws on freedom of movement. You are confusing Uefa competition rules with EC law. They are entirely different things. There is nothing new about any of these rules they were clarified in March 2005. I repeat, there is nothing in any of the rules of any association to prevent any club offering contracts to 15, 16 or 17+ year old nationals from any EC country. Nothing that Arsenal has been doing for the last 5 years or more is hindered in any way by any of these rules. We are still signing European youngsters for our youth teams and we will continue to do so next season and thereafter. You seem to confuse contradiction with argument.
Amos.
Nope Amos, until recently clubs on the continent were not able to offer Professional contracts to players until the age of 18. This however has changed making it more difficult for 15-17 year olds to get poached. Therefore Arsenal were able to offer professional contracts to youngsters at clubs who weren't able to offer competing contracts only promises. Now these clubs can get these youngsters under contract meaning they cannot be poached.
kernowboy
I am not arguing that associations have or have not tightened their rules just that it doesn't stop us attracting and recruiting young players. We simply have to reach agreements with the clubs where contracts exist. We did that just recently with 16 year old Giles Sunu for example. These players can spend 3 years with us to qualify under the academy player rules but can even be included in the squad as one the 17 (from 08-09 season)non conforming before then provided that we have 4 others from our own academy and 4 trained in other domestic league academies which we meet easily now then no problem. But in any case they can play in domestic competitions without restriction. The premiership is the most attractive in Europe for young players from France, Holland and EC members from Eastern Europe. The supply is plentiful now and will if anything grow. I hope that clears it up for you.
Amos.
I should just point out that we don't have to have 4 players from other domestic academies we can have 8 from our own academy. We can even choose to submit a squad of less than 25 if need be. I think our last CL squad was 22 players so we would only need 5 'home grown' players. Remember this is only the squad. If we wished we could field 11 players and have 5 players on the bench none of whom qualify under the 'home grown' definition. As I said it changes very little.
Amos.
Interesting. Can you provide the source that sayst that the rule will not be retrospective? According to the UEFA site, they state a rachet agreement year on year and there is no statement that players signed before 2008-09 will be exempt. What you have failed to mention is that the FA (your new friends) are one of the few associations not to apply the rules to their domestic competition so our colleagues in Europe who will have these rules applied to their domestic competition will make even greater efforts to retain their players. At present you have found a loop hole - easily closed - a club has to nominate a 25 squad or will not be allowed to compete ... see easy.
kernowboy
Harry, I haven't once used the word racism in this thread, your trying to rehash the points I made to you in an argument from some months ago. (Have some tact as well Harry, literally the day after you signed out, this kernowboy character turned up, one day). I didn't make the parallel between nationality and racism, look back at my points, your confusing yourself with a rant you had at me back in March. I made the parallel between eye colur, hair colour and nationality, they are all criteria that people should not be judged by. I find the fact that you want young English people to succeed so desperately confusing, I just want to see young people succeed full stop, irrespective of where they are from. e.g Kolo Toure deserves success more than Ashley Cole. Is that not the principle of the society we live in (in thoery anyway)? Best man gets the job, you work hard, you get the job. What you are seeking, and what these Australian and Canadian legislation you cite have done is essentially shift a problem from one place to another and ensure that young people are protected by legislation, thus removing the incentive for them to work hard. On an international level, that would be to the severe detriment of the England team, if English youngsters no longer have to compete for their places at club level, their ability will suffer. It's odd that you exhibit the self same characteristics as Sir Harry in debate, you invent a counter argument, all of your own construction, and then seek to deconstruct it. Now Harry, kernowboy, jekyll, hyde, colonel mustard, whoever your new daylight hallucination is, I'm afraid I'm off on holiday for a week. This may offend your sensibilities as I am journeying to another country to experience another culture, so I eagerly await you venting your spleen upon my return.
Little Dutch
Little Gimp .. you made references to blond hair and blue eyes - suggesting a prediliction towards Aryanism and by definition racism. There was never any remark advocating that nationalism was determined by ethnicity - normally measured in eye and hair as well as the colour of an individuals skin - nationalism is an emotional not a physical expression dumbass... it is you that have endeavoured to cloak yourself in such a position of implying that there is something wrong with Patriotisn where even your beloved Thomas Payne was a Girondist ... look it up if you are too think to realise what this movement in the French Revolution was about - I know other people have read books to. Or do you retract these references in yoru excuse of an argument. You are obviously obsessed by this Sir Harry guy as you see him around every corner .. good on him .... please before you leave, provide one of your mind numbingly boring diatribes that masquerade in your own pathetic little mind as interesting articles ... it is a marvellous cure for insomnia. Ironically I am in Spain next week and then Germany not on some sangria fuelled booze up but on business where I can get to learn of the real country and its people.
kernowboy
Little Gimp, just out of interest you weren't on the Algarve about 8 or 9 weeks ago? You strike me as the sort
kernowboy
Sorry, i popped out to beat some worthless immigrants up but they were a bit tougher than I thought... the subject of nationality was brought up by you kernowboy... I do read posts but always stand to be corrected (even by the occasional idiot) as should you! "Anti-Britishness" was brought up by you in relation to our manager and club in this thread, but is a theme running through the last 7-10 days of your posts (since signing Bent) when you took it upon yourself to come over and educate us 'retards'. Whenever we are having a good exchange or argument, you recede into this rhetoric just when it gets interesting. That must be why Little Dutch calls you Sir_Harry, because that's exactly what he used to do. Even the line you used "I drive a BMW so have nothing against imports2 sounds like our old friend. Shame because we could have had fun! That's why I said you are a time-waster Sir_Harry.
Andy-bayor
You never fail to disappoint Harry, I never made reference to blond hair and blue eyes, I just said hair and eye colour, your complex filled in the rest of the details once again. I repeat, I never said Thomas Paine was a hero of mine, I simply quoted a line, as Mark Twain once said, "I should never be ashamed of quoting a bad author, so long as the line was good." I've never stated my motives or reasons for going on holiday, where I am going or how long for, once again you filled in the details there (there's a recurring theme here). Like I said, if you don't like my articles, don't read them, I'm not making you. Just remember, when you're in Spain, if you see a policeman, don't throw a chair at him.
Little Dutch
blimey LD, our posts crossed... obviously I'm not the only one to think this is Harry or his incarnation!
Andy-bayor
I think the fact that he turned up less than 24 hours after his alter ego signed out was the first clue. It didn't really take Columbo to work it out, but directly quoting an argument I had with Sir Harry four months ago was just plain silly.
Little Dutch
... and all this because we told him Bent was way overpriced!
Andy-bayor
so what do we call him now - Harry_boy?
Andy-bayor
Also Harry, can I commend your wit on the clever piece of word play you adopt, subverting my log in name to imply that I am a vertically challenged, sexually submissive slave. Bravo. Chris Morris has nothing on you.
Little Dutch
Andy, I don't name ****, I flush it.
Little Dutch
Yep, you have to I suppose, especially when it stares back at you so aggressively.
Andy-bayor
Just reading tonight's posts lol. Andy, Amos & LD, we salute you!
flv
Can I also make the point sir harry before you launch into another one of your witty insults, that the sum total of Liverpool and United's English youth products since 1998 is.................Kieran Richardson. The other Enlish players they have were purchased for extortionate prices, so you might want to think (you know, that thing you do that doesn't involve a newspaper or a sky subscription) before you hold them up as paragons of nationalistic virtue. Ta.
Little Dutch
Seriously though, there is something disturbing about that kind of behaviour so I'm leaving it here. Last time he took it upon himself to leave with his tail between his legs because he got found out... but he bided his time before returning and attempting to get the knives out. Bit sad really. Bring on the new season please - maybe it'll serve as medecine! Come on you Gunners!
Andy-bayor
Little Gimp calls me Sir Whathisface because as a true Narcassist he cannot stand someone who comes up with an argument that questions the excuse of a position he takes. Notice how he moves to paint any person who disagrees with him as an extremist if they don't believe in his, "My nationality is Earthling, everything else is irrelevant' nonsense. The subject of the nationality was brought up by the author of the thread. Some intelligent people discussed it. Some abusive individuals then tried to twist it into an Aryan position, commenting on blonde hair and blue eyes when previously no mention has been made of a person's ethnicity. The question was asked by me was how such a brilliant academy could not develop more domestic youngsters if there was a not concious or subconcious discrimination against them maybe based on past esperiences. If someone had read the posts, I said that a top club should be able to find 25% of their squad from the domestic league area they represent. Not a 100% or 75% or 50% - it is disapponting that cretins like Little Gimp are held up as intellectual heroes when what they do is try to make a reasonable position held by someone else as extreme as possible. If you want to call me an Aryan sympathiser and by implication a racist because I say I'm proud to be English and find it very disappointing that a club of Arsenal's alleged stature cannot make more effort to develop local youngsters then I will and will continue to call such people retards as their comments are nonsensical. And the comments made regarding Bent are pretty pathetic. Considering the goal ratio he has (a goal every 2.2games) in the Premiership THFC paid the going rate, no more no less. Or maybe you lot don't like him because he's an uppety English black guy.
kernowboy
Does anyone else out there have trouble spelling "medicine" properly... it always catches me out!
Andy-bayor
Now Little Gimp, when your away on your hols, if you spot any little blonde 3 year old girls ... just leave them alone. Err and didn't Man U finish above and Liverpool win the Champions League .. maybe you should pay some exhorbitant prices and get some players who will shake up that spineless excuse of a team you put out. The only one who played with any guts was your Anti hero Henry and .. oops now he's left
kernowboy
I have trouble spelling, 'spelling' properly Andy. Did I just spell 'properly' properly? I find it tough sometimes being a retard lol.
flv
Mate, one more time, I did not mention blond hair, blue eyes, or mention anything to do with Aryanism, that was you. So you are the "abusive" person here. I haven't once referred to you as an extremist, I've merely stated my own position, I don't care where a person is from, I look for more than that in people. I have merely stated that I am not a patriot, nationality is not important to me, it's a virtually non existent entity to me, just as eye colour and ghair colour are. England to me is a language I am fluent in and where all of my stuff is. The other point I made was that it would be a terrible thing if people were as close minded about the patriation of the NHS as they were about the patriation of a football team. I fear my posts are lost on you, you will probably try and make out that this post depicted Hitler as a civil rights hero, or contained reference to me masturbating over Paine's 'Common Sense.' So I'll leave it here before you make anohter rather tragic, but quite funny attempt to lose me my job. Enjoy Span and Germany Harry.
Little Dutch
"when your away on your hols, if you spot any little blonde 3 year old girls ... just leave them alone." A classy argument, a career in comedy awaits.....or a position as a UN ambassador. Enjoy your trip and best of luck for next season, Spurs will need it.
Little Dutch
Actually it was flv "Should all the players have blonde hair and blue eyes too kernow?" (read above) one of your colleagues I believe. Scroll up and its clearly there. If you are going to lie, try not to leave the evidence lying around. The point is the EC have stated that they regard Sport as deserving an exemption on the norms concerning freedom of employment etc because of its importance to the fabric of society and therefore should be regarded as different from other types of employment .. ergo your comparative comments about the NHS were erroneous and false and designed to imply an extremism to your colleagues which was based on an holy inaccurate premise. Disappointing that one of the more intelligent Gooners should have to resort to lies and false statement to try to support their positon.
kernowboy
The "Aryan" jibe was a non-malicious jibe made in context earlier in the thread. The author didn't use it to get high and mighty or develop it into a slanging match, although the recipient went bananas anyway. LD's posts are now resembling the same posts of 4-5 months ago with Harry, and on that nore it is bed-time!!! flv, we can always go to spelling classes together mate - we could sit at the back of the class and scratch "Bent is overpriced" into the desks!!
Andy-bayor
Maybe I am living in the past...I saw my first game at Highbury in 1962 at the age of five and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. Many many highs and lows.However, something has been niggling at me for a few years now. I accept that the game has changed and all the clubs have to look far and wide for prospective talent, but it strikes me as rather strange that we have not unearthed many homegrown "gems" in the past ten years. Under every other Arsenal manager young home grown players came through...why not now ? I accept that Ashley Cole and Justin Hoyte have come through and in the past David Bentley. Not much to show for ten years though is it ? I suppose I should try and forget my romantic notions of home grown's like David Rocastle, Charlie George and Ray Parlour,Paul Merson, to name but a few, smashing the ball in the net. It feels like those days are gone forever and that saddens me. I had a tear in my eye after Ray Parlour bent the ball around Cudicini in the Cup final....For him that was probably a lifelong ambition. I have never felt anything close to that since.....
radar
Andy-bayor ... there is absolute no way you can make an ARYAN jibe and not directly imply racism. Aryanism is a racist philosophy based on the idea that a Nordic Superman from a particular genealogy - blond hair, blue eyes - is superior to anyone else. Read it in context ... there is no way that it was not Malicious. And flv is from the USA so he knows exactly who the Aryan Brotherhood is, what they stand for (Neo Nazi Racists) and how any intelligent person would take the jibe. Or how was the jibe intended? Please explain the 'innocent' alternative?
kernowboy
Exactly the point I have been trying to make Radar. It is regretable that things have reached such an extreme that certain bodies now feel that it is a problem requiring legislation. Unfortunately Bosman has led to the point where it is too late to turn back the tide.
kernowboy
Harry I only offer my interpretation... he said "blonde...etc" after you'd called Wenger anti-british....you started it etc!!...g'nite now!!
Andy-bayor
Kernowboy you need to refer to media release number 014 dated 3/2/05 for clarification. These rules have been operating already just the number increases from the current 3 club trained and 3 associated trained to 4 for the season 08-09. As well as reading the web site take the trouble to understand it. There is nothing new only a modest change in the numbers the season after next. There is no loophole to close your imagination is creating rule changes that no-one is considering. 25 is the maximum size of the squad and not the minimum as some clubs would struggle to maintain squads of that size. One more piece of advice for you: Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Amos.
A difference between someone observing a tendancy/trend and being called a Neo-Nazi I think ... or don't you get it. Harry is my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kernowboy
Little Gimp ... I believe there is a nationwide shortage of a lavatory attendants so any effort by anyone to cost you your job would be a terrible act. There is nothing worse than taking a leak in a smelly urinal and I, for one, applaud the work you do and feel it is a job which doesn't get the recognition it deserves ...
kernowboy
"the subject of the nationality was brought up by the author of the thread." It's him!
k_chelski
But Amos, if they try to find a loophole the legislators will move to close it. You implied that to avoid the rule clubs could just name squads of 17 rather than 25. UEFA could easily change the rules by insisting clubs entering had to name a squad of 25 with the 8 special case squad members. Or state that teams could not replace players not initially named in the squad = teams would run out of players due to injury and would have to forfeit games. I agree the rule doesn't say that at present, but like with all rules in all sport, the moment teams try to circumvent the spirit of the rules the governing body will close it. Now why don't you engage your brain and show some foresight before opening your mouth. Pillock.
kernowboy
Brave man, K_chelski ... rather you than me suggesting BigDanny is this guy Sir_Harry. How far away is Brazil?
kernowboy
as far as your ignorance goes.
k_chelski
watch it ... he's coming to get you
kernowboy
Oh dear kernowboy you really are flailing around now aren't you. Do you really think that Uefa hadn't considered all this at great length and in consulation with all member associations? The clarification more than 2 years ago was to made to answer just such questions in other words the 'loophole' was known and considered sometime back. In any case we have no problem meeting it the rules now and we won't have in the future. As I said before you deal only in contradiction and not reasoned argument.
Amos.
so why did you mention it then Amos, the possibility of under strength squads?
kernowboy
Because I felt that you would benefit from greater understanding and appreciation of the rules. Silly of me I know.
Amos.
Kernowboy. lmao. Who uses "the author" line?
k_chelski
K_chelski .. just to further your education - an article is a written composition on a subject usually published in a newspaper or a magazine; a 'thread' is more commonly used on a blog site as each item tends to be linked to a common theme - for example on this page Arsenal rather than a stand alone article not having any link to a previous submission: an author is a person who composes any written work .... therefore BigDanny is .. ergo .. the author (person who wrote it) of this 'thread' (written composition linked to a common theme) - hope this relieves you of YOUR ignornance. Have a good evening.
kernowboy
Ok let me show you all outside of the box. The british premier league is different than all others.It's the most profitable, and the most competitive.I understand that people get sad because they don't see their fellow british mates playing in the big english clubs, only in the championship. The Premier league is more attractive to watch than the World Cup, that's a fact. It attracts billionaires, that don't care where the players are from, they just care about they status, and their quality.England is going through a process of which only the best english players will play in the top teams, naturally more english players will appear, and the english quality will rise. They'll be combined with the strength of the 1966-ish english teams, and the flair of latin teams. The premier league is at the center of the footballing world.Thus, unfortunately (or fortunately) for british people, it becomes everybody's league. But there is also something of a nationality thing. I doubt you'd want to exclude people from scotland, wales, ireland. I feel there is a grudge against latins, don't know why. There ya go! that should spice things up in the debate.
k_chelski
The author line is used by intelligent people,
kernowboy
"hope this relieves you of YOUR ignornance" thank you my ignornance has been relieved.
k_chelski
What term would you use to describe the person who created the thread above?
kernowboy
lol. get it over it man.Jesus....
k_chelski
K_chelski, I have no problem with Latins, Slav, Aryans etc. What I am saying is that when any sport suffers an excessive influx of competitors, the opportunity for local individuals suffer. The problem is the amount of money in the Premiership does compound this. A number of nations have actually taken steps to balance this up and what has happened is that sport has become even more popular. In Canada, the CFL introduced a quota on Canadians, that then attracted only the best Americans as the Canadian teams had to develop local players to fill their rosters and the skill levels of young Canadians increased to the point where some have moved to the NFL ... and the standard of the CFL has also markedly improved.
kernowboy
kernowboy, how many local English talents have the spuds developed recently?
G4L
the goons wont buy english players, seems a bit anti english!
springy
Don't you see the gigantic loss of money this would bring You would have countless average english players, that are expensive as hell. it would be very very boring. The new wave of english players will step up to the level they need to play first team in the best league in the world. If it's not played by the best , it won't be the best. People from japan don't watch it because there are x amount of english players in the team. They watch it because they love seeing their super players, not caring where they're from.
k_chelski
can't I get an answer?
G4L
and to quote an reasonable guy... scroll back to the top of the page and read: "not again the same debate... expect an influx of over-zealous spuds on speed here. don't say I didn't warn you. G4L"... thank you
G4L
Alas, it's just that the vast majority of english youngsters do not seem to have the technical ability of their european or south american counterparts. It IS a shame, it would be good to see more young english players at Arsenal, but alas they do not appear to have the requisite talent. Take bentley as an example, who appeared to have the technique, was not prepared to wait for his chance in the first team, and you cannot say that a bentley of 2-3 seasons ago deserved to displace a robert pires of the same period?

Arsene Wenger has stated that he envisages that by 2 years time, the English players currently coming through the Arsenal academy will be of the same technical capability of those from abroad. And this argument that has been trotted out for the past 3-4 years, that we are ruining English football (not saying you, though maybe you have...) by not giving english players a chance, it just does not hold up.

If we continually bring through these youngsters, then they unfortunately leave the club as they are not deemed sufficient quality, then we are continually supplying youngsters to the premier league, and right now, there are an awful lot of players who came through the Arsenal academy, who are forging successful careers for themselves in the top two leagues on english football. So we are in effect doing English football a good service, giving these young players top preparation for them to have a successful career in english football.

As has been mentioned before, there are precious few English players at ANY of the top four clubs who have come through the youth system in the past five years. Richardson coming through the ManUSA system was mentioned, and I'm sorry, i do not think he is good enough to play for England. We had Cole, who has since departed, Chelsea had Terry, Liverpool - Gerrard & Carragher (29 now). For the top four clubs, the pressure is so incessant for success to be achieved/maintained, that for any young player to be brought through, the manager has to be 100% positive that the risk is worth presevering with. It's just so much of a gamble these days, witness what Wenger has gambled in the belief that this squad will come good, allowing Vieira to leave to create room for Fabregas, allowing Henry to depart, jettisoning Sol Campbell. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Interesting arguments! I just find it interesting that a club that maintains that talent is all they are interested in regardless of where they are from. Insists that ownership stays in british hands
Topspur1
Good point.
k_chelski
Nobody is saying we want countless average English/British players !!....Although we certainly have enough average foreign ones here. I am Arsenal through and through but answer this..." how the f**K did Stepanovs ever play for us ?....how the F**k did he ever get on training ground ?You can't tell me that we didn't have a better young player on out books than him ? Foreign does not in all cases mean better , classier....I just do not accept that this is ALL good for our game....not just at Arsenal but at any club.....
radar
radar u have no clue what u r saying
G4L
If you have full english teams, with a restriction to foreigners, you'll have alot of average english players. I get what you are saying, the amount of money in this league is absurd, the best player gets the job.And no, no always the best player will be foreigner.
k_chelski
lol. G4L, he said he is arsenal through and through!
k_chelski
Expand please ?
radar
I never said anything about having any restrictions...I was implying in my last post and the one before that, there is not even a mix of overseas and home grown players now.
radar
well radar, I'm sorry but Stepanovs played for Arsenal because someone thought he'd be good enough. Ended up wrong about him but not wrong about Kolo Toure. David Bentley couldn't wait for his chance - he left. Sidwell was advised to go - he left. Pennant was just a pain in the Arse - so he left too. Jeffers was here - he was as pants as Igors Stepanovs. Upson was injured and decided to be a first-teamer in Brum. Got relegated, injured, transfered to WH, injured again and then almost relegated again weren't the Blades such a ***** poor team. Then there's Richard Wright - or R. Wrong as some call him now. And then the biggest c(u)nt of all times - the 5k-Bentley-swerving Mr. Tweedy. Let's not forget about Sol Campbell, who while his head was straight did a marvelous job for us. Then came West Ham and he is said to have actually decided to never play football again. Or we can talk about the transfer fees of SWP, Reo-Coker, Darren Bent, Owen Hargreaves, Rio Ferdinand, Rooney, and more recently the valuations of Micah Richards, Curtis Davies. Do you see something wrong in all these?
G4L
Blaming club football for the lack of technique in english football is aiming at the wrong target. Faced with the financial demands of Wembley the FA chose to drop the plans for a 'Clairefontaine' style academy. If the FA can't take the development of English footballers seriously why should anyone else. When we needed a College the FA built a Cathedral - a place of worship instead of a place of learning.
Amos.
All very well G4L but the original point I was making was that where is the young home-grown talent ? A handful of players in ten years?...Are you saying that because of Wayne Rooney's transfer fee we can't have any home grown gems at Arsenal ?......or because SWP cost Cheslski 21 mil we won't buy British ?.
radar
And are you trying to say that Alumina was better than Stuart Taylor? Taylor never let you don't. What you are saying is that you'd rather pack your squad with average overseas players who collect their large wages and are happy not to be a 1st teamer rather than face the prospect of ambitious youngsters who say .. "I deserve a chance to prove whether I'm good enough or not" - David Bentley got 1 game .. just 1 game which is quite frankly ridiculous. Give a guy 15-20 games and you get a true measure. And if English players are so lacking in technique and talent, how did we get to the semi finals of the UEFA U21 Championship, run the eventual winners, Holland, right to the wire, whereas France and Spain didn't even get there? At last there's an Arsenal fan who knows what they are talking about - RADAR, I shall cease referring in derogatory terms about your fans as FINALLY there is one who gets it ... no-one says go to one extreme or another just a level playing field for all.
kernowboy
As a comparison JEREMIE ALIADIERE got 29 Games to prove he was not up to your (alleged) standards ... DAVID BENTLEY got 1 Game. Now do you understand why English guys feel they are not being given a fair chance?
kernowboy
Aliadiere was 24 when he left while Bentley was 20. So the comparison is not relevant as Ali had 4 more seasons in which to play a further 28 games. In any case it was Bentleys decision to go. He knew he wasn't good enough to make it at Arsenal.
Amos.
kernowboy your argument regarding stuart taylor is not exactly sound there - since joining aston villa, he has found himself playing second fiddle to thomas sorensen, so he has hardly cememnted himself with a first team place. Also, Taylor lasted longer than another goalkeeper who was an 'overseas player collecting large wages' Alex Manninger, who also looked a fantastic prospect, alex manninger who also never let us down. He finally left on a permanent basis too in 2002 after being out on loan in serie a for a season. He too has never made it.<

And regarding bentley, as i asked in the previous post - would you have played bentley ahead of robert pires? Of course you wouldn't - Idf you're in the results business then you're under pressure to get the wins, and if you've got an experienced world class player who can pick apart defences week in week out, you will play him as you know he can deliver. Why don't spurs play Andy Barcham ahead of Dimitar Berbatov? Because they know there's more chance of Berbatov producing the goods. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
the difference is exactly the fat paychecks - English players are interested in that more than the foreign players, who actually value their football education and are prepared to wait for their chance. Bentley was behind Pires, Ljungberg, Reyes and thought he was good enough to play 1st team football. Now he is too tired to play for the U21.. ......and kernowboy, you keep avoiding one question all the time... how many young English prospects has your academy produced in the last 5 years? Where are they?
G4L
Harryboy, you need to answer the last question "how many has your academy produced" quite urgently don't you think? Anyone like you that blames club football (especially Arsenal) for damage done to the game is at best naive, or in your case willfully ignorant. Amos said it well - the FA built a cathedral instead of a school - and you ignore the validity of that statement. What is happening simplistically with the game is that it has become global and like most things these days it has been subjected to a rampant and decadent capitalism. When TV stations, institutions and then clubs want to join the merry-go-round, there's no stopping the madness as evidenced by absolutely stupid transfer fees, and *****-taking wages. The "free market" seeks to tear down divisions that want to stop the flow of money and profit, consequently clubs end up bringing in the best players they can find to complement their squad. No club then, buys on nationality. Your attempts to smear us are pathetic and you avoid talking about the real problem, choosing as an easy target selected Arsenal players to make your point - I mean the Aliadiere-Bentley comparison - you are having a laugh! Wingston said already that the players to come out of our academy will be top class - and thats a commitment-proper to football, not your cheap-shots and *****-poor excuse of an academy Maybe you are scared to say that the FA are more to blame than anyone else or that greed and twisted values are doing their best to wipe tradition out of the game, but its the truth.
Andy-bayor
Again G4L, learn some literacy. I have already said we are about 5 years behind you in regard to what our academy will develop. Reyes a better bet than Bentley ... don't make me laugh, and Hleb has been an excellent buy at £9.5m - he's done nothing. How is it possible to tell if a player is good enough or not if given only 1 game? History is littered with players who were much better on match day than they ever were in training. And this nonsense about ambition. If you are told you have the talent, you're not given the chance to even display that talent and then you get a homesick mommy's boy signed ahead of you, it becomes self evident you're not going to be given a fair crack of the whip. 28 games in 4 years = 7 a season, 6 more than Bentley got allowed. And because of your cliques it would be obvious to an intelligent player that he'd only get a chance if he left. Interesting how a large number of managers rate Bentley very highly including Sir Alex.
kernowboy
Sir Kernowboy if Wenger is anti English why did he sign your captain Sol Campbell? You really do need to get it into your ridiculous mind that if Wenger thinks a player is good enough for the Arsenal 1st team THEY WILL PLAY regardless of nationality. Why would he buy Walcott for a fee that could rise to £12 million if he was anti English? Why did he even bother buying players like Upson, Pennant, Jeffers and Wright if he was anti English? Why did we win the premiership with a back 5 of Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Keown and Winterburn if Wenger is anti English? why did players like Cashley and Ray Parlour thrive under Wengers management if he is anti English? Weve won premierships with English players, foreign players and we would probably win it with manequins and squirrels before you ever get to touch such a trophy again. Go away and take your crap argument that you cant back up with you.
iceman10
again, bad call kb - at the time before bentley left he had been on loan at norwich and then blackburn - clubs that can afford to regularly take the kind of risks on young players, in the hope that their precocious talent may end up saving them from relegation battles, we were at that time fighiting it out for the title, not exactly an easy time to just drop in a young player and hope he delivers, if you eff up the league cos of that, he gets his confidence knocked. Bentley, if he had been prepared to stick it out at Arsenal, might well have come on in the same way he has at blackburn here.

You haven't answered my question - would you have played a young unproven-yet-talented bentley ahead of world class and consistent provider and goalscorer pires? would you play Andy Barcham ahead of Dimitar Berbatov? »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Wingston75 ... obviously not .. but I'd have given Bentley a long and proper look before signing Reyes and Hleb. Iceman10, no-one has said Wenger was always anti English, but he inherited your back four, and Parlour. He made some signings early but in most cases they were young players never given a proper opportunity and then had journeymen like Stephanovs and Cygnan dropped in front of them to impede their development and reduce their opportunities - you drag out Walcott as the exception to the rule but he's really thrived since joining you hasn't he ... the more accurate term would be regressed.
kernowboy
You really do know nothing about football. Walcott was injured for 80% of the season and has recently had surgery to correct the shoulder problem he was having, how is that regression? How many games did stepanovs play for Arsenal and who was he impeding? Cygan over Upson was IMO 1 of Wengers few mistakes but Upson was demanding 1st team action. I dont hear Senderos who is the same age as Upson was when he left demanding the same things and he is a full international who has played at a world cup.
iceman10
There we go then - that's the quandary Wenger has faced. And Hleb is one of the most effective players in Arsenal's approach play, has unbelievable close control. And when reyes was signed he was one of the hottest prospects in football, it didnt work out, in the same way it didnt for spurs when they signed helder postiga.

The reason Walcott has not been as prominent as everyione has been reminding us, might have somethign to do with the fact he was playing the vast majority of last season with a shoulder injury that required surgery. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Is Wenger anti-German because he let Moritz Voltz go? or anti-American because he let Simek go? Maybe anti-Brazilian because he let Juan leave? Anti-Dutch even as Quincy was let go? Then again he is also anti-Dane as Svard didn't make it. Anti-Greek Tavlaridis? Anti-Czech Papadopulos? Or was it simply that like Bentley they were good players but just not good enough?
Amos.
kernowboy, so your academy is 5 years behind ours, and you come here to criticize us? Insightful logic. I can't wait to see the blossoming English talent your academy starts to produce in the future. What a load of nonsense. How is it possible to judge a player - well sorry to break it down to you - but it is! Show me one team in the world that gives EVERY player 10 games to prove himself regardless of their nationality/position/age. How many games has Murphy played for the Sp*rs since his arrival? Alnwick? Ifil? And if Bentley was THAT good, btw he is a good player, why is he still at Blackburn? Why didn't Sir Alex sign him instead of splashing out 19 mil on a Portuguese kid?? You drown yourself in your own sh(i)t. Comparing Reyes to Bentley is like comparing Berbatov to Defoe - who'd you rather play? Jose Reyes was/is an excellent player - his attitude sucks. Hleb came from Stuttgart after collecting player of the year in Germany, and contrary to what you say, his stats last year put him in top 10 players in England according to contribution to their team last season, your own Robbo finished 402 out of 403, and your favourite Bentley just nipped in at 401st.
G4L
Amos, Wenger is also anti-Italian because of Lupoli.
G4L
Good point G4L. And he let Grondin go so he must be anti-French too? Perhaps we should restrict our scouts to Iceland. Oh but the other hand he let Skulason go.
Amos.
Amos .. Quincy is Ghanian or at least has declared for the Ghanian team. Personally the fact that there one intelligent Radar amongst all the flotsam maybe affords a little hope that more intelligent Arsenal fans can be found. As it is, the rest of the Premiership will be delighted that very few talented young English players will be consider joining you - Nathan Porritt for one will run a mile before even thinking of such a stupid plan.
kernowboy
kernow - you do not mean intelligent, you mean someone whose opinion fits your own. Radar is entitled to his opinion. The fact you think anyone who doesnt agree with you isn't intelligent is a bit small minded - so someone cannot have a different opinion from you? That utter bull. That's a very fascist way of thinking
Wingston75
No - Quincy is Dutch, born in Amsterdam of Ghanain parents and holds a Dutch passport. He played for Dutch youth teams but has recently switched to Ghanain national side. As for talented English youth players you only have to compare the contributions we have made to recent U17 and U19 tournaments which is as good as any club in the country and much better than most. Certainly much better than your lot. Earlier this month 5 youths signed professional forms; I dutch, 1 portuguese, 1 pole and 2 English. You are persistent kernowboy but consistently wrong.
Amos.
I disagree Wingston. Radar decried the fact that such a large club cannot develop any meaningful players to make a first team contribution from the local 'catchment' area. Like with many sports, I have said the only way that this could change was by regulation, and all of a sudden thats racist and fascist. All we get from you lot are young English players aren't good enough for the mighty Arsenal, when they barely get a change to even demonstrate this and are impeded by a whole raft of crap from overseas - Alumina, Cygnan, Flamini etc. No-one says we should not have quality foreign players .... its the crap that also gets signed which is the problem, as it deprives young English youth a genuine opportunity, and also impacts on the flow of revenue to smaller clubs which is so vital for their future and the future of the English game. I don't want to see an English games of a few big franchise clubs only. It is disappointing, that representing the English FA in European club competition, all of this revenue used in transfer fees flows out of the English game whether it be for established players or youth potential to the detriment of the English game. The key words here Wingston are GENUINE OPPORTUNITY. If players are given a chance and are crap then fair enough but to use an analogy that Little Gimp is fond of: "English guys are given a probation period of a week only in a new job, while overseas signings get 3 months". Give the English guy the same real opportunity as an overseas signing and you'll get the same result
kernowboy
Amos, if he chooses to represent Ghana, then that makes him Ghanian. He's Dutch Ghanian or Ghanian but not Dutch.
kernowboy
the game we love has changed forever. if english kids are watching the foreigners and trying to play like them then surely it will only make them better players. limiting the amount of foreigners in a team or at a club is a bad idea. our league and its entertainment value would suffer as a result. the england team has been inadequate for 30 years - foreigners taking up, supposed, english places in teams or not.
Dales_Dad
In Italy when they banned and then restricted foreigners, there was a upsurge in the standard of the game and also the national team. Teams could only sign the BEST foreigners meaning that youngsters only learnt from the best, not having average players impeding their way. Managers and coaches would be compelled to make more effort on local players. The opposite thing has happened in Germany where there are so many mediocre foreigners signed it has had a negative effect on the national team but also on the standards. They are signed becasue they are cheaper. If restrictions were introduced, the price of domestic players would remain high - teams would then develop more youngsters themselves - and the price of domestic players would slowly fall.
kernowboy
after effectively ending Murphy's playing days by nailing him to the bench and giving 'talents' such as Tainio, Ghaly and Zakora in midfield, I wonder how many games will Ifil get ahead of Chimbonda... I smell a rat
G4L
so I guess Dudu is a Croatian as well? Born in Brazil with a Brazilian passport and parents, and only because he chose to play for Croatia makes him a Croatian. oh my
G4L
Quincy is as Ghanian as Hargreaves is English, or Olisadebe is Polish or Alex Santos is Japanese, Strupar is Belgian and Vastic is Austrian. you are ridiculous kernowboy
G4L
Of course DaSilva is Croatian - the same as Kuranyi and Klose are German. Personally I would not be disappointed if Chimbonda leaves. His temper will get him into serious trouble. And I would like to see Phil Ifil get a proper look as we have a couple of youngsters behind him in Chris Riley and Adam Smith. Ghaly has always been overrated, I am ambivalent about Zokora even though Wenger rates him - I think Barry would be a much better signing - and Tainio was a solid player who has been badly affected by injury. I think Jamie O'Hara deserves a look as does Kieran McKenna. Jamie Davis, if he shakes the injury bug, should be allowed to progress further, and in the long term Dean Parrett, has the potential to be his generations Steven Gerrard. G4L I have been consistently advocating a smaller 1st team squad a more chances for our talented youngsters since I joined 4 months ago. Murphy however was a panic buy.
kernowboy
'Of course DaSilva is Croatian - the same as Kuranyi and Klose are German.' As I said before its just contradiction not reasoned argument. Thanks for the run down on your wonder kids kernowboy - absolutely captivating stuff. But why here? Why not over on the spuds site? Or couldn't they give a toss either?
Amos.
I really like your line: "I would like to see"... the fact of the matter is - you won't. Unless you want any decent left midfielder/winger in the Premiership (Pedersen, Malouda, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rosicky, Young, etc.) to murder you from there or unless you want to finish ´closer to place 15 on the table. Klose is a German since his dad was ethnic German living in Poland. Kuranyi although born in Brazil is also a German because his dad is of German origin. And of couse Da Silva is Brazilian with a Croatian passport. There is no Brazilian minority living in Croatia, nor is one of his parents a Croatian. Admit you're wrong it is ok. I could understand your frustration at the lack of English players in the setups, but what is annoying is you pick Arsenal and keep banging that it is Arsenal's fault. Look around your team, and Liverpool and the chavs and Manure and see how many young English players they produce. In the last 2 years - ManYoo sold Ebans-Blake, Luke Steele, David Jones, two Irish lads, Nardiello (Welshman), Tierney, David Fox, 2 Scottish kids, Neil Wood, Colin Heath, Picken, Lee, and last but not least Eddie Johnson. Personally I do not go to the Vital Manure, but if I did, I suspect that I would see you there seething at their foreign policy - Nani, Anderson, Kuczak and Tevez are hardly English, are they? Why not go and give them a bit of your medicine. I could go on like this for most of the clubs in England, but seems that you are too stubborn to quit it.
G4L
G4L - Hargreaves, is as English as you and I. His parents are British, father English - Mother Welsh, his brothers were born in England and I seem to recall he was actually concieved in England. Where you are born does not determine your nationality. There are plenty of English people who happen to have been born in Commonwealth countries. The moment you acquire a countries passport you are entitled to be considered a full national of that country with the same rights and benefits that that entails. The moment daSilva took Croatian citizenship he became Croatian. And why Arsenal? - because the club and their fans are the most purid scum of the earth in the history of football.
kernowboy
"because the club and their fans are the most purid scum of the earth in the history of football" - there goes miles and miles of your argumentation down the drain. and btw, I am not English. you can hate me now as well ;)
G4L
I see my last message went unchallanged. Great success...
k_chelski
G4L .. what a surprise .. does the scum have any English fans or is thats why no English fan supports them in the CL - I'll back ManU, Liverpool and Chavski when they play but never the Scum.
kernowboy
oh dear oh dear. And you were trying so hard kernowboy. All to let it slip out that you are nothing better than a rabid hater who is just looking for an excuse to come over here and throw your weight about.

So we've got fans from aroun the globe - I'm proud of that, we're a global club, with a global fanbase, and I will always welcome Gooners everywhere, wherever they are from, that fans from other countries appreciate the football Arsenal play and want to pledge their allegiance to Arsenal Football Club. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Did you support us when we won the cup winners cup in 1994? we were full of ur beloved English boys then!
iceman10
Kernowboy you are rather like an irritating mongrel constantly barking for no other purpose than it likes the noise it makes. There is no point or sense to your noise it just gets on every ones nerves. Now why not go and bark somewhere else. Tried the spuds site yet?
Amos.
The irony of foreigners criticising English people for saying that (allegedly) English clubs should make more effort to select English players in the English domestic league. Hahahahahahaha
kernowboy
What a stupid idiot! It was painfully obvious at the start fo the thread that Harryboy was an absolute time-waster... 46 years in the desert screws with your brain by the looks of it!
Andy-bayor
nobody criticized "English people for saying that (allegedly) English clubs should make more effort to select English players in the English domestic league" you ignorant *****. You were accusing Arsenal and Brady's academy of being anti-English and preventing English talent to blossom which in turn hampers your (*****) national team. That is what I discussed. Furthermore, your hypocrisy continued as your academy and the academies of the English clubs you would support in Champions League (lasagne) have recently produced very close to zero players for their respective squads and consequently for McClaren's team full of bottlers. And in order to prove any of these points - I didn't know I had to be English. The envy, frustration and hatred towards Arsenal and moreover towards foreigners has consumed you and I am glad that there are few, if any, people who support Arsenal with similar points of view. You are a disgrace.
G4L
G4L you are a pathetic little individual. I love the way Barcelona play but I don't support them or have their shirt in my wardrobe. I thought AC Milan in the Saatchi era were magnificient but I didn't jump on their band wagon. I admire football around the world AND support my local club not jump on some bandwagon like closing my eyes and sticking a pin in a map of Europe to decide which team will get my support this week. The difference is, IF Wenger leaves, IF Arsenal fail to qualify for Europe, the Gunners won't see fans like you come hell or high water ....... glory hunters
kernowboy
Envy towards foreigners ... ***** off!!! I count my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate enough to have been born British. Everyone else are just wannabes
kernowboy
Don't you just despise these hateful narrow minded xenophobic Johnny English subbies? Ridiculed worldwide for their colonially driven, superiority complex ridden arrogance, I openly flagrantly flannel my arse with the union jack, it - like all flags, aint worth jack.
nikolaijns
kb - every time you try and make a point, you then take two steps back by saying things like that last post. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
"Everyone else are just wannabes" Wannabes of what exactly? What did England do to be so superior? Calm down little hitler.
k_chelski
Hitler was Austrian, K_chelski. England for one produced a superior football league ... thats why you lot can't get enough of it
kernowboy
I wasn't comparing you two by nationality.Hmm, does it make you mad that it's only superior because of foreigners playing in it?
k_chelski
a superior football league, but as kevin said, it's largely down to the foreign players, and also the type of football, with it's end to end frenetic style (which some would say that, whilst exciting, is not necessarily the most advanced...). Yet I've also seen some truly turgid games involving prem teams, we even played in one last year.

it's a pity that our national team has underachieved for so many years... everyone harks on about euro 96 too, but conveniently forget we played pony in that too. Watching England play is one of the most frustrating experiences you can go through. And the whole adage about great players can always play together, why on earth can't the cream of english football ever gel as a unit, and produce a cohesive display? they seem incapable of it. They play as a disparate bunch of strangers, and it is not as though they have not played together enough. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
What real fans appreciate is thats football ... its not always a sunny day - many genuine fans have more bad days than good ... and makes no difference where the players come from ... the Englsih way of playing is more exciting, and if only we'd play our natural game we'd be far more successful .. its amusing that the witless K_chelski thinks that a lifelong supporter of a supposed Jewish club would also hold the same views as the architect of the holocaust. Maybe he should actually look up about Hitler and his philosophy to understand what an idiot he was making with that statement.
kernowboy
" count my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate enough to have been born British. Everyone else are just wannabes" nationalism you idiot, nationalism.When I compared you to hitler, the first thing that crossed your mind was "we can't be alike because he is hungarian". I believe your grudge against foreigners goes far beyond football, but anyway, let's get back to what this is really about. Answer me, does it upset you that foreigners make your league the best in the world?
k_chelski
Austrian you pillock. He was born on the Austrian/German border, and Hitler's nationalism had its foundation in the notion of racial superiority you imbecile. What DISAPPOINTS me is that whilst there are a lot of talented foreign players, we also have a load of mediocre overseas players who simply block the opportunities for young English players. How would you like it as a young Brazilian, if you couldn't play in the top division because of a group of mediocre non-Brazillians? The Minsiter for Sport here Gerry Sutcliffe has raised Government concern that "more clubs are favouring cheap foreign imports over putting their faith in domestic youth. There is an issue in how we ensure we have home-grown talent right the way through to a successful England team. I am aware of the competition issues and about freedom of movement but I think it is something we need to try to address." So I hold the same opinion as the British government!!!!
kernowboy
kernowboy, lmao, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary please , have a look , ever heard of it?Extreme nationalism that's what I am talking about.Hitler hated all sorts of people, above it all was the jews, I don't know what you hate(probably latins), but I am sure you hate a race. Even before the foreign players boom, England wasn't very sucessful, so what's your explanation?Young brazilians do not need to play at the top division to have success, many of them are bought in the second division. It's all about cost/benefit.
k_chelski
the reason clubs favour foreign imports is because as soon as a player is english with a semblance of talent, take the price you'd pay for a dutch player, say, and add £10m.

If I had a choice between Robin van Persie for £2.5m or Ashley Young for £10-11m, give me RvP every time. And yes I know we signed RvP a couple of seasons ago, but prices haven't escalated that severely in the interim period. Not Young's fault - he does not set the price, but the price clubs demand for English players is way over the top... »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
Please answer Kevin sir Kernow, why were England still s h i t when there was only a handful of foreigners playing in England? Also how did the so called 'Golden Generation' that was supposed to win us last years world cup come to be?
iceman10
The reason foreigners are preferred to 'home-grown' in any situation is purely down to ability vs. value for money. The relative financial power English teams enjoy means their players of similar ability cost twice as much. Couple that with the mentality of winning at any cost (ala high balls and a big effort) the youngsters coming up bound to be inferior technically, in general meaning overall it's more prudent to look elsewhere. Of course this is a shame for the future of the English game but footballers should be judged by performances on the field and not superficial crap of it
Phartman87
IMO England lacks unity, concentration, responsability of playing for their national team, and chemistry. A good manager always helps as well. Why buy the raw gem stone for 10m, if you can buy the diamond for 2m? Why spend time preparing ashley young to became an RVP, if you can buy an RVP for much less? And also, Kernowboy said the old english style is exciting, but everyone criticises their heir bolton I think, of long ball, cross cross, run run, tackle , long ball. One thing leads to another, it all depends on the manager, Ranieri bought Lampard, because he knew lampard would turn into a 30m+ player. Look at Eduardo DaSilva, left Brazil at the age of 15, never played top division football in Brazil, and is now going to play at Arsenal. It's all down to quality.
k_chelski
I am waiting for your answer Harrynowboy.
k_chelski
Add to that the celebrity culture of many young english players, who think that because they have made it onto the books of a pro0minent club, that have made it, and are the mutts nuts.

No offence intended to your club, Kevin, but that's what Cashley became, an aspiring Beckham-style celeb, and that, along with the whole 'crash my car at £55k' thing are what make me glad he is no longer here

The young foreign lads we have - you never hear of them out on the lash, or larging it with cheap tarts - they all seem to knuckle down and concentrate of learning their trade, which is as a footballer, not as a young bloke with a ferrari who chucks £3k at a night out at China White's without batting an eyelid. »»Arsene Knows««
Wingston75
lol, I am not Ashley Cole's biggest fan. I prefer bridgey.
k_chelski
copa america semi finals on in 20 mins Kev! confident?
nikolaijns
Now as a mater of fact. Very confident!
k_chelski
lol at the commentator on gol tv "Forlan - touch of a bricklayer!", for me as a neutral I'm hoping for the Brazil Argentina final tho I'm sure you'd rather face the Mexicans Kev.
nikolaijns
It's in! Goaaaaaaaaaal. Mexico would be a good rematch. But I want the chance of destroying the argies! Oh and the lights went off, lol. The stadium's lights
k_chelski
You lot arguing about foreign players, I can't even watch a goddamn match because there's no light in the stadium.
k_chelski
Ouch he he can't say it has'nt been comin, great game, in the 9th min of injury time lol still 4 mins left!!
nikolaijns
It's in! Goaaaaaaaaal! THE BEAST!!!!! JULIO BAPTISTA!
k_chelski
Recoba is feckin immense man
nikolaijns
lol had 2 be Bappers
nikolaijns
Finally an exciting game.
k_chelski
I'm jus killin time til Sat when we face the mighty Barnet lol, looks like we finally signed Sagna, not great news for Hoyte oh well, more fuel for the anti foreigner numbnuts.
nikolaijns
Dammit 2x2.....
k_chelski
It's all over! It's ALL OVER! WE ARE IN THE FINALS!!!Even though Gilberto Silva won't play in the final.Bye Bye Uruguay, after like 15 minutes of penalty kicks. WEE WON!
k_chelski
I got the impression that England made the World Cup Semi Finals in 1990 and the Euro Semi Finals in 1996 - surely this is superior performance than is currently shown .... if anyone had actual bothered to learn to read, I have never said NO FOREIGNERS, I HAVE SAID SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THE UK MINISTER FOR SPORT. i,e TOP FOREIGNERS What you think K_Chelski and what the truth is are two disparate things. Hitler was born in the Austrian-Hungarian Empire which consisted of the Kingdom of Austria and the King of Hungary ruled by the Hapsburgs. Geographically he was born in modern day Austria. The Austrians in the Empire considered themselves about Hungarians. No-one used Austro-Hungarian to call themselves. My goodness you are mind numbingly stupid !!! Just because you can read Wikipedia clearly shows you don't understand what was said. I'd heard of it, I'd studied it at school, you clearly never did - what place does the Empire hold in the histroy of the 20th century?
kernowboy
lmao, world cup semi finals and euro semi finals?Woow... the average foreigners are better than english foreigners, and they coast cheaper! So by your logics, a guy that has a brazilian mother, a brazilian father, born in brazil, but got a croatian citizenship , is croatian.But hitler that was born during the austro-hungarian empire can't be called hungarian? Let's wrap this hitler thing up, since you clearly avoid all the other points raised and shifted to the one you thought you actually had a chance of winning.I'm gonna close this part with a quote of yours :----- "ount my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate enough to have been born British. Everyone else are just wannabes"------ Other questions that I asked have been avoid, oh dear oh dear. Answer me, why pay 10m for an average british player, if you can pay 2m for an average foreign player?Is 8m the price to put England in another mighty semi final?
k_chelski
Personally I would be in favour of these changes ... 1) the rule of non Europeans have had to appear in 75% of internationals in the previous 2 years should be scraped - its stupid - i,e Anderson from Porto moving to ManU ... 2) If a club wish to buy a player with no international experience and claim the equivalent UK player would cost 3 times as much and there's a doubt then they put the evidence including the prices quoted before a panel of 5 ex-payers and managers to consider - if the UK player is wildly overpriced then fair enough - if a club try to break the rules by presenting false evidence then the penalty is a 30pts deduction for cheating .... 3) 25% of the Premiership prize money is dependent on the academies developing players who can represent the national association - if not then the money funds a national academy .... 4) a nationwide reserve league should be created where 4 out of the 16 players in the squad have to represent the National Association. This will drive out the philosophy of padding out squads with average overseas players and force each club to take a more serious look at young English players in a more competitive league ..... 5) The Premiership should set squad numbers i.e 25-28 players per 1st team squad .. 22 in a reserve squad, so again making sure that young English players don't have to fight through 3 or 4 overseas players in their position, making it more likely that if a club suffers an injury crisis or rotates their squad they'll get a reasonable chance. ------- Hardly an excessive or extreme position
kernowboy
That wouldn't work as there isn't one winger, one midfielder, one defender. If I wanna buy fabregas, will I have to compare him to lampard? Or to a championship player? English players will adapt to the level they are required to play. And it will come to a point that their cost will decrease. That's gonna take some time.
k_chelski
K_chelski it has to start somewhere, but I agree it will be a long term progression. Other sports are considering these options. The Rugby Football Union are considering offering financial inducements/penalties to clubs to encouraging clubs to field more English players in their squads as kids are getting turned off pursuing a sporting career because of a lack of opportunities. The system currently discriminates against non-EC players so this takes that away ... it just means if a panel of professionals feel there is no skill difference and no cost difference between an English player and an overseas player, the club will have to have one hell of a reason to sign the overseas player
kernowboy
Regarding the rather broad statement of how English players 'lose their way' while their colleagues don't, a way to prevent this would be to introduce a salary cap - maybe one thats age specific. Its fairly insulting and often completely inaccurate to say this is an accurate assessment though.
kernowboy
One rule that I agree that should exist, is 6 sub allowed, at one of the 17 players brought to the game has to be english, doesn't matter if he plays or not. That would encourage teams to find english talents, whilst not hurting the foreigners.
k_chelski
glory hunter? you know sh(i)t about me johnnyboy - I started following the Arsenal during the George Graham era when AFC was full of English players. Loved every one of them to bits. And I really feel sorry for you as your club has offered you zero glory and joy. The occasional win against the chavs and that's it. @kevin - congratulations on your win. To be honest, I like this Brazilian team far more then the one with Ronnie and the rest of the superstars. Kaka would be the only addition for me to this squad as it has much more ballance. And I agree on the 6-7 subs on the bench. I never understood why the EPL allows only 5 players. As far as quotas - I rest my case. Let mr. Proud-2-B-whatever here spout his garbage.
G4L
K_chelski .... good idea .. I think what they did in Scotland was insist that a couple of players on the bench were able to play for Scotland U21 out of 16 players ... no requirement to use them, but all of a sudden the Scottish U19,U20,U21 teams are doing better as are the full side. Its just about giving everyone a balance chance. If Arsenal buy Sagna, it just pushes Justin Hoyte down again, and he played excellently last season.
kernowboy
Yeah, it wouldn't hurt the existing foreigners, but it would encourage teams to invest in british players, and reward those that already do. Chelsea would have an extra sub available for having english players.And Arsenal would have walcott on the bench, one extra player. @ G4L , thanks, beside a slow first 15 minutes of the second half, the game was very exciting, too much exciting actually. Uruguay had the chance to win it , but he hit the post (and starting crying after) my heart was in my mouth. Then Lugano helped us. missing his penalty, and putting us in the final. Hopefully against argentina! And who the ***** is fernando(sub used by dunga)?????
k_chelski
 

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