Mad Dogs & Englishmen

not again the same debate... expect an influx of over-zealous spuds on speed here. don't say I didn't warn you.

I personally think that even though there are some cracking English players, by and large English players are very overrated, indeed the PL only became the best league in the world after the influx of foreign players. And why pay 16.5Million for a Darren Bent when you can get a Robin van Persie for £2.5M?

You are mssing some english sprit in the team,somthing that will know how to play with the english way and knows the pride of Arsenal football club.rememeber you do have the best youth academy in this country if not europe/world and you do produce alot of english players however they are just not good enough and instead of keepin them at the club and never really start.arsene releases them and they can continue there career elsewere instead of bein wasted.Arsenal could have a full squad of more than 22 all english players but...you would not be anywere near the level you are currently.

manutds youth academy has closed down and stopped producing english players. They had to settle for big money english signings. Take a look at those english players wearing manutd shirt and currently playing for england. Hargreaves, carrick rooney and rio. Money spent in getting these players could have been used to buy a feeder football club. Dont even get me started on chelsea.

i've got no more energy to comment on this topic.. this door's been opened many a times before by are unrespected, scum and the other half of north london football fraternity.. if u could call what they play "football".. anyways.. the point is.. yet again.. there's no need for english players.. u dont need bent for 16. when u have da silva for 8.. i can bet that bent the sp*d and torres of the loserfool are going to be down the list as compared to dudu in the scoring charts come the end of the season.. au revoir.. for now.. Goon-o-centric4life..

It may be a reflection of football today but when you bring through English players you often to do so from a very early age. Players hold up the likes of Fabregas as an illustration of the strength of an academy but it is actually highlighting a weakness. Fabregas was ALMOST a finished article when he joined Arsenal, all the formative work having been done at Barcelona, the same with Pique and Man Utd. As these leagues start closing the loopholes that allow their 16-17 year olds to get poached internationally, then there will have to be a fall back onto domestic players. It is teams like Leeds United and Middlesborough who constantly develop top youngsters who have the best academies. Why do you think Arnesen has made such effort to get the likes of Woods and Sinclair into the Chavski academy? Once the new rules in Europe come into place it will be a steady slide to a more 50/50 balance between national and imported players.

kernowboy, RVP is not a support striker. he is equally good on the wing as he is when he plays as an out and out striker. bent at that price is crap compared to RVP..

Since RVP was bought prices have gone up across the board, a natural inflation. And since when has RvP been a 'lead the line' striker like Henry or Drogba? You bought RvP in 2004, for £2.5m, Bent was bought by Charlton for £2.75m in 2005. Do you think you could buy RvP for £2.5m now - you wouldn't get change from £15m. And whilst RvP scores a goal once every 3 games, Bent is almost on a goal every other game ratio. Considering he achieved this playing for Charlton, I think fans underestimate that achievement.

flv ... maybe you want to look at the deal that UEFA has done with EC before offering your opinion. They even offer it in languages other than English to aid your comprehension. Football along with other sports has gained an exemption to the rules of equal opportunities as it is felt that in the area of sport, the comprehensive application of existing equal opportunity laws damages the foundations of the sports involved, often having a negative impact on social issues. Within a season or two, UEFA are introducing rules concerning players in a squad having had to have come through either the teams academy or an academy in the Associations area they represent. With the Spanish, French and Italian FAs and clubs closing their loopholes on poaching the likes of Fabregas, clubs in the UK will have to sign these players when 12-13 rather than 16-17. For example I think in Spain, players couldn't be offered a pro contract until they turned 18 but this rule is being changed to allow Spanish clubs to offer pro contracts earlier. Once this has started, it will be easy for the rule to be extended from 8 out of squad of 25, to 13 out of 25 as the political will to oppose it will have gone.

The Uefa rules have nothing to do with nationality. If they did it would fall foul of EU and National Law. It only refers to where players have trained. Second though it might be recommended that the rules be employed by national leagues they only apply to Uefa competitions. It will make little difference to the way we operate the academy though it is clear that other teams are more protective of their young talent ultimately all that will do is force up the cost rather than extinguish the supply.

Real Madrid have confirmed their interest in Arsenal star Cesc Fabregas. Fabregas's future at Arsenal has been the subject of conjecture following Thierry Henry's departure from Emirates Stadium. Another one bites the dust! Who`s next??????

watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEpN02TG-EE

cockeril, stop sucking...

and just a personal opinion, if you cannot put out a team where 25% of the players can represent the National Association in who's league they play .. i.e. England ... then they should not be allowed to take that national associations places awarded for international competition. The National Association have a responsibility not just to run the league but also to the national team ... it is a matter of record, when the Italian Association banned foreign players in the 1970s, this directly raised led to Italy winning the 1982 World Cup. Italian players then improved because there was a strict limit put on the number of foreigners who could play in the league, meaning young Italians improved by playing with the best foreign players, not the dross that is frequently imported these days. 4 players in a weekend squad of 16 - surely only the most pathetic of managers could not achieve that minor figure?

Firstly, should Wenger decide to renew his contract it won't have a release clause in it. He never allows it for players, so wouldn't do it himself. As anyone that actually knows the guy will tell you, he is either committed or he isn't. He won't work under half measures, but if you choose to believe a rag then thats your problem.......Secondly, have a look around the premiership clubs & for that matter the rest of the leagues & see just how many english players arsenal have allowed to leave for next to nothing in order to have a career, which will ultimately benefit the national side. If Wenger doesn't feel that the british players we have are good enough technically for the first team, then why should he play them??.............Finally, anyone who tries to defend Bent's price on the grounds that he scored goals at charlton would appear to know very little about football. Just like Kevin Phillips at Sunderland, the whole team was set up to supply him, now that he is at spuds that wont be the case & he won't be a regular. Therefore he will have more pressure on him & so far whenever thats happened, he has looked out of place, ie his first game for england. Torres has scored goals at the highest level as has Eduardo, Bent has not. Therefore you cannot relate his price with that of proven players!!

Well according to UEFA ... the Premiership is about as high as it gets especially compared to the Croatian League ... and wasnt all of Dinamo Zagreb and Croatia's play set up for Eduardo? A player who has consistently scored in the Premiership for 24 months will do nicely ... how many goals has Eduardo scored in the Premiership?

Interesting comment flv ... not quite sure why you would be so unintelligent and stupid to make it ... many people in football including, players, managers, chairmen, the good and great of the game and increasingly politicians think that football should have an exemption and because of the behaviour of certain teams, quotas have to be installed to give youngsters an opportunity to succeed than compel them to travel hundreds of miles ... are these people, better people than you'll ever be, in favour of only those with blonde hair and blue eyes................................................the fact you cannot be asked to support a local team but leach onto a successful team like a parasite, tells everyone what they need to know about you. You're not a genuine football supporter, just following the local fashion. Two more seasons and you'll be following Man U or Chavski !!!!!!!! ............................................... another example would be Scotland. Here they have insisted on a minumum number of young Scots at the very least on the clubs' bench and all of a sudden they get to EuroU19 finals and the WorldU20 finals

Kernowboy, The Scots are getting their ass kicked in those finals. America only has about 10 players in their U-20 squad that are professional players. The rest are college kids. And they are kicking everyones ass even Brazil. So the Scots are just putting ***** quality on the bench of their clubs to met the rules. So is that what you want. Downgrade the overall quality of the EPL to help the nations national team. Doesnt sound like the best idea to me.

Many people in football think that do they kernowboy? Does that include the French Director of Football at your place or the Dutch manager? Maybe the Dutch skills coach or the Dutch Goalkeeping coach? Perhaps they should all give way for the glorious good of English nationals to prevent them damaging the game. This narrow parochial view of the world is nonsense. Why should someone from Lancashire or Yorkshire feel any greater affinity for a London club than someone from Normandy or Tuscany? If you are a genuine football supporter then it is the game and team you enjoy not whatever flag or passport its individual members might hold.

Again Amos, people are talking about minimum requirements to help the domestic game. The Frenchman, and Dutchmen have signed both overseas and English players. Of course the inbred hatred of all things English at Arsenal and its apologists of a fan base wouldn't comprehend this. Hey lets get rid of a domestic league ... why not try to have a pan European competition and those 72 clubs not in the Premiership, close them all down? And while we are it, lets stop having teams and have franchises like in the states so we can move the teams all round Europe for a quick Euro and ***** the genuine fans!! Genuine fans were disgusted when Wimbledon relocated to become the MK Dons. I bet there wasn't one of you lot amongst them - if local fans can't support local teams from the local area then it will be the start of the slow death of the game as we know it.

The reason that I posed the question, childish as it was, is that you come accross as being totally anti foreign. To be honest, your comments about leaching up to a team that I'm not local to makes me a parasite, supports that. The Premiership is screened to a worldwide audience and Arsenal's fanbase is 27 million. This means that the majority of Arsenal fans are not supporting their local team. That's a lot of parasites. My guess is that spurs and every other club in the Premiership has their equal share of parasites too. Just remember that these parasites play their part in boosting your clubs funds very season. For your information, I started supporting Arsenal in 1987 due to a strange twist of fate that I won't bore you with. At that time the popular clubs were Everton and Liverpool. I also go to, on average 3-4 matches a year. I'd like to go to more but my budget, and ticket demand have a large part to do with that.

How local is a local player playing for a local team? Is South London Darren Bent local? Or Tom Huddlestone? Jermaine Jenas? Michael Dawson? Aaaron Lennon? What have any of them got to do with a local club? What radius do you draw around the ground to decide whether they are local or not?

This is a debate I really can't be arsed to have again. My only comment would be to say I don't give a ***** where Arsenal's players come from, just like I don't give a ***** where my friends come from. Next time you need treatment in hospital kernowboy, I hope that should a non national nurse offer to sew a limb back to your blood soaked body, I hope you'll sit back down in the waiting room and kindly request that you can wait and be seen by an English nurse. Judging anyone by national criteria is a frustratingly myopic viewpoint. If you were to fall in love with the woman of your dreams and she reciprocated those feelings, and you felt this enormous connection with that person, would you turn her down for the girl next door on the basis of geography?

fat robbo isn't one?

i thought fat robbo was the mascot - he waddles like someone in a fatsuit, i naturally assumed tha's what he was... »»Arsene Knows««

Kernowboy - a time-waster whose pathetic drivel ends in insults about our manager and anti-Britishness… a major resentment is eating you up judging by your recent posts... it hurts that England is doing pants (clue: there’s a pants manager in charge) and you also hurt that we don’t share your valuation that Bent is worth £15.5m (give us a break)… Arsenal of course are indirectly to blame for all this, and because nobody supports these strops you gradually turn into the footballing version of Enoch Powell… the FA makes the rules on nationalities, not us – have you written to them or gone to their forums to argue the toss? Arsenal have elevated the attractiveness of English football, so now some kids who may aspire to play the beautiful game can join a Sunday league where it will get beaten out of them by the ‘lump it upfield’ brigade, nurtured and sponsored by the unimaginative cowards at the FA. Instead of posting again, you could write down all your dumb rants on paper and roll them up nice and tight before using them to robustly whack your friend cockeril and yourself round the back of the head.

Deja Vu?? Typical Sir_Harry type argument, not even worth going there. k_chelski, fat robbo was of Leeds Utd descent, although some may argue, his flab has been grown and nutured in Tottenham Hotspurts Academy... so that ALMOST makes him a product of the mighty Spurts!

Wenger for England Anyone???

A foreign manager? For England?? *gasp* Thats absurd!! Don't you think kernow-patrioticboy won't mind?

Though it's true that Wenger's anti-English agenda is clear for all to see. He couldn't wait to get rid of Seaman, Adams, Keown, Winterburn and Dixon, and it's not like he sped up the evolution of English football or anything with his dietary and fitness regimes. It's also not like he's awarded Justin Hoyte a huge new contract, nor would he be interested in paying £12m for a young English talent like Walcott.

"Next time you need treatment in hospital kernowboy, I hope that should a non national nurse offer to sew a limb back to your blood soaked body, I hope you'll sit back down in the waiting room and kindly request that you can wait and be seen by an English nurse." YES LITTLE DUTCH .. THEY MAY TRY TO BLOW ME UP IN A TERRORIST OUTRAGE INSTEAD !!!! - one or two players who fall into Wengers lap by accident doesn't change a policy. The bottom line is UEFA/EC have already started to change the rules, favouring players who have gone through an academy in the domestic league where a team plays. Added to the changes in the rules in the French, Spanish and Italian leagues, you're not going to be able to poach under aged kids from around the world like some slightly dodgy pied piper. You boast about your academy but in reality 90% of the work done with the likes of Fabregas was done by someone else. And Andy Croat 27, **** back to supporting one of your local teams, because I think you are the one who's ashamed of your nationality.

Well flv, for a start, many foreigners appear to be potential suicide bombers!

kernowboy, if you weren't so blinded by ignorance and stupidity, you'll find that andy da croat is a supporter of Dinamo Zagreb - and is here lending his support to their ex-captain. you're a qualified idiot as you keep banging on the academy issues at times when sp*rs have no academy products since god knows when and are inclined to 'snatching' youngsters and alleged 'talents from other clubs. Since most of the youngsters in Arsenal's team have come through our academy, I'd think you're the ones in deep *****. Your stupidity is further displayed by the claim that 90% of the work with Cesc was done - had he stayed at Barca he would have NEVER played as much, he would have never furthered his footballing education and would have been shiped after 2-3 years to some 2nd rate club in Spain

Could (Sir) Kernowboy please explain to us how Cashley, when he was a gooner was the best left back in the world? How did he manage this with the evil Arsene not playing him because he's English? If your good enough and your attitude is right you play, end of. Now go back to the cock site and salivate over ur glorious list of English players such as Jermaine Jenas.

Who out of all current English players would you have playing at Arsenal BigDanny? and at the expense of what current Arsenal player?, would you really want to see an Arsenal player(s) humiliated ritually every two years when they turn out for the terminal embarassment that is Ingerland. Really Englands style of play is the Anti Arsenal whilst their players are grossly over inflated in value or in the case of Robinson just inflated. I would'nt pi$$ on any of the English players Trottybum have; Jenas, King Sicknote, Blobbo, Dewoe, utter *****eshower of the highest order, if these gimps were any more pedestrian theyd have their own personal feckin lollypop lady. I also would'nt want our players tainted by that half wit McClown. ***** England.

Andy Croat, I have respect for certain players in the Arsenal team, but the complete lack of respect for Darren Bent is somewhat surprising. He has done extremely well for a medium, to lower table, and is getting judged on virtually on 1 international that cretinous moron Eriksson gave him. Eduardo has scored zero goals in the Premiership. If he has a decent season it will be a good buy .. if he scores 3 and Bent 15 then he will be a crap buy .. everything thought Shevchenko would be an awesome signing. Paying the going rate for a developing player who has average over 15 goals a season (almost a goal every other game) and who will still attract a decent fee in 4 years time is good business. What these cretins fail to understand is if you slag off one player, you'll get your player slagged off.

If Little Dutch wants to tell me how much I'd want to be treated in hospital by an exclusively English doctor/nurse with such a sweeping statement, I'll simply take the time to remind him of some recent news ... likewise attempting to draw parallels between normal life and football, shows that he has in fact go no answer for the actual statement made.

No-one is stating that Spurs do not have players in their side from their academy in their team. Poor management of the club over the previous 5-10 years has caused this. What I am curious to know is 'have Arsenal suffered appalling bad luck in being able to develop any youngsters from England apart from Ashley who was driven out of your club or is it merely incomptence and a system of selection which favours non-English youngsters?' If your non English youngsters so wondeful why aren't you winning the Premiership by 30 points?

So what if they oblige clubs to field English and academy contingents? If as you said earlier, Wenger is stupid, lazy, and anti English, he will have single-handedly destroyed English football before the rules come in! You should run for Prime Minister then you could personally deport him... when it's all said and done, that is the level of your diatribe, and your attempts at reasoned debate are just a front... I'm not the only one that thinks you sound like a seething nationalist rather than a patriot.

.... no, I am a Patriot but we all know every single person who drags their sorry arse to the Emirates is not, doesn't consider themselves English, and are ashamed of the passport they are 'forced' to carry

Yep, at least you prove the seething nationalism. Gunners are the same as any other fans in the country... except because of the London effect we may not be Little Englanders like you. Patriots don't try and ram their lowest-common-denominator garbage down other people's throats like you.

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" .. tell that to your American supporters who admirably so have great virtue in Patriotism .. wasn't Thomas Payne your hero? .. how ironic his words and pamphlets created a society where patriotism is a virtue. A Patriot is a person who vigorously defends their country and way of life ... no point is ever made of eye or hair colour and if you'd get off your lazy pathetic worthless moronic arse and bother to read any of the preceding posts, no remarks was ever made regarding race, colour of a person's skin and it reveals your absolute desperation by trying to imply otherwise.... in fact foreign players are welcomed but not at the expense of the 100% subjugation of domestic players. But being such a narcassistic individual, you don't actually feel the need to read previous posts to know you're right. Now run along and put all your fellow Gooners to sleep with one of your inciteful threads.

LMFAO...

And interestingly because Australian cricket have restricted overseas players in the Sheffield Shield, this has compelled states to develop their own youngsters. These youngsters have gone on to create possibly the greatest cricket team the world has ever seen creating a sense of patriotism, knitting together a diverse group of people into a greater sense of nationhood, and creating a feel good factor with positive economic repurcussions for large parts of society. How appalling that this outcome was based on a racist (oops sorry) patriotic mentality.

You really are struggling to understand your own points aren't you kernowboy. The EC has nothing whatsoever to do with the rules organised for Uefa competitions. Their only interest is in ensuring that they do not breach EC laws on freedom of movement. You are confusing Uefa competition rules with EC law. They are entirely different things. There is nothing new about any of these rules they were clarified in March 2005. I repeat, there is nothing in any of the rules of any association to prevent any club offering contracts to 15, 16 or 17+ year old nationals from any EC country. Nothing that Arsenal has been doing for the last 5 years or more is hindered in any way by any of these rules. We are still signing European youngsters for our youth teams and we will continue to do so next season and thereafter. You seem to confuse contradiction with argument.

I am not arguing that associations have or have not tightened their rules just that it doesn't stop us attracting and recruiting young players. We simply have to reach agreements with the clubs where contracts exist. We did that just recently with 16 year old Giles Sunu for example. These players can spend 3 years with us to qualify under the academy player rules but can even be included in the squad as one the 17 (from 08-09 season)non conforming before then provided that we have 4 others from our own academy and 4 trained in other domestic league academies which we meet easily now then no problem. But in any case they can play in domestic competitions without restriction. The premiership is the most attractive in Europe for young players from France, Holland and EC members from Eastern Europe. The supply is plentiful now and will if anything grow. I hope that clears it up for you.

Interesting. Can you provide the source that sayst that the rule will not be retrospective? According to the UEFA site, they state a rachet agreement year on year and there is no statement that players signed before 2008-09 will be exempt. What you have failed to mention is that the FA (your new friends) are one of the few associations not to apply the rules to their domestic competition so our colleagues in Europe who will have these rules applied to their domestic competition will make even greater efforts to retain their players. At present you have found a loop hole - easily closed - a club has to nominate a 25 squad or will not be allowed to compete ... see easy.

Little Gimp .. you made references to blond hair and blue eyes - suggesting a prediliction towards Aryanism and by definition racism. There was never any remark advocating that nationalism was determined by ethnicity - normally measured in eye and hair as well as the colour of an individuals skin - nationalism is an emotional not a physical expression dumbass... it is you that have endeavoured to cloak yourself in such a position of implying that there is something wrong with Patriotisn where even your beloved Thomas Payne was a Girondist ... look it up if you are too think to realise what this movement in the French Revolution was about - I know other people have read books to. Or do you retract these references in yoru excuse of an argument. You are obviously obsessed by this Sir Harry guy as you see him around every corner .. good on him .... please before you leave, provide one of your mind numbingly boring diatribes that masquerade in your own pathetic little mind as interesting articles ... it is a marvellous cure for insomnia. Ironically I am in Spain next week and then Germany not on some sangria fuelled booze up but on business where I can get to learn of the real country and its people.

Sorry, i popped out to beat some worthless immigrants up but they were a bit tougher than I thought... the subject of nationality was brought up by you kernowboy... I do read posts but always stand to be corrected (even by the occasional idiot) as should you! "Anti-Britishness" was brought up by you in relation to our manager and club in this thread, but is a theme running through the last 7-10 days of your posts (since signing Bent) when you took it upon yourself to come over and educate us 'retards'. Whenever we are having a good exchange or argument, you recede into this rhetoric just when it gets interesting. That must be why Little Dutch calls you Sir_Harry, because that's exactly what he used to do. Even the line you used "I drive a BMW so have nothing against imports2 sounds like our old friend. Shame because we could have had fun! That's why I said you are a time-waster Sir_Harry.

blimey LD, our posts crossed... obviously I'm not the only one to think this is Harry or his incarnation!

... and all this because we told him Bent was way overpriced!

Also Harry, can I commend your wit on the clever piece of word play you adopt, subverting my log in name to imply that I am a vertically challenged, sexually submissive slave. Bravo. Chris Morris has nothing on you.

Yep, you have to I suppose, especially when it stares back at you so aggressively.

Can I also make the point sir harry before you launch into another one of your witty insults, that the sum total of Liverpool and United's English youth products since 1998 is.................Kieran Richardson. The other Enlish players they have were purchased for extortionate prices, so you might want to think (you know, that thing you do that doesn't involve a newspaper or a sky subscription) before you hold them up as paragons of nationalistic virtue. Ta.

Little Gimp calls me Sir Whathisface because as a true Narcassist he cannot stand someone who comes up with an argument that questions the excuse of a position he takes. Notice how he moves to paint any person who disagrees with him as an extremist if they don't believe in his, "My nationality is Earthling, everything else is irrelevant' nonsense. The subject of the nationality was brought up by the author of the thread. Some intelligent people discussed it. Some abusive individuals then tried to twist it into an Aryan position, commenting on blonde hair and blue eyes when previously no mention has been made of a person's ethnicity. The question was asked by me was how such a brilliant academy could not develop more domestic youngsters if there was a not concious or subconcious discrimination against them maybe based on past esperiences. If someone had read the posts, I said that a top club should be able to find 25% of their squad from the domestic league area they represent. Not a 100% or 75% or 50% - it is disapponting that cretins like Little Gimp are held up as intellectual heroes when what they do is try to make a reasonable position held by someone else as extreme as possible. If you want to call me an Aryan sympathiser and by implication a racist because I say I'm proud to be English and find it very disappointing that a club of Arsenal's alleged stature cannot make more effort to develop local youngsters then I will and will continue to call such people retards as their comments are nonsensical. And the comments made regarding Bent are pretty pathetic. Considering the goal ratio he has (a goal every 2.2games) in the Premiership THFC paid the going rate, no more no less. Or maybe you lot don't like him because he's an uppety English black guy.

Now Little Gimp, when your away on your hols, if you spot any little blonde 3 year old girls ... just leave them alone. Err and didn't Man U finish above and Liverpool win the Champions League .. maybe you should pay some exhorbitant prices and get some players who will shake up that spineless excuse of a team you put out. The only one who played with any guts was your Anti hero Henry and .. oops now he's left

Mate, one more time, I did not mention blond hair, blue eyes, or mention anything to do with Aryanism, that was you. So you are the "abusive" person here. I haven't once referred to you as an extremist, I've merely stated my own position, I don't care where a person is from, I look for more than that in people. I have merely stated that I am not a patriot, nationality is not important to me, it's a virtually non existent entity to me, just as eye colour and ghair colour are. England to me is a language I am fluent in and where all of my stuff is. The other point I made was that it would be a terrible thing if people were as close minded about the patriation of the NHS as they were about the patriation of a football team. I fear my posts are lost on you, you will probably try and make out that this post depicted Hitler as a civil rights hero, or contained reference to me masturbating over Paine's 'Common Sense.' So I'll leave it here before you make anohter rather tragic, but quite funny attempt to lose me my job. Enjoy Span and Germany Harry.

Actually it was flv "Should all the players have blonde hair and blue eyes too kernow?" (read above) one of your colleagues I believe. Scroll up and its clearly there. If you are going to lie, try not to leave the evidence lying around. The point is the EC have stated that they regard Sport as deserving an exemption on the norms concerning freedom of employment etc because of its importance to the fabric of society and therefore should be regarded as different from other types of employment .. ergo your comparative comments about the NHS were erroneous and false and designed to imply an extremism to your colleagues which was based on an holy inaccurate premise. Disappointing that one of the more intelligent Gooners should have to resort to lies and false statement to try to support their positon.

Maybe I am living in the past...I saw my first game at Highbury in 1962 at the age of five and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. Many many highs and lows.However, something has been niggling at me for a few years now. I accept that the game has changed and all the clubs have to look far and wide for prospective talent, but it strikes me as rather strange that we have not unearthed many homegrown "gems" in the past ten years. Under every other Arsenal manager young home grown players came through...why not now ? I accept that Ashley Cole and Justin Hoyte have come through and in the past David Bentley. Not much to show for ten years though is it ? I suppose I should try and forget my romantic notions of home grown's like David Rocastle, Charlie George and Ray Parlour,Paul Merson, to name but a few, smashing the ball in the net. It feels like those days are gone forever and that saddens me. I had a tear in my eye after Ray Parlour bent the ball around Cudicini in the Cup final....For him that was probably a lifelong ambition. I have never felt anything close to that since.....

Exactly the point I have been trying to make Radar. It is regretable that things have reached such an extreme that certain bodies now feel that it is a problem requiring legislation. Unfortunately Bosman has led to the point where it is too late to turn back the tide.

A difference between someone observing a tendancy/trend and being called a Neo-Nazi I think ... or don't you get it. Harry is my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Little Gimp ... I believe there is a nationwide shortage of a lavatory attendants so any effort by anyone to cost you your job would be a terrible act. There is nothing worse than taking a leak in a smelly urinal and I, for one, applaud the work you do and feel it is a job which doesn't get the recognition it deserves ...

But Amos, if they try to find a loophole the legislators will move to close it. You implied that to avoid the rule clubs could just name squads of 17 rather than 25. UEFA could easily change the rules by insisting clubs entering had to name a squad of 25 with the 8 special case squad members. Or state that teams could not replace players not initially named in the squad = teams would run out of players due to injury and would have to forfeit games. I agree the rule doesn't say that at present, but like with all rules in all sport, the moment teams try to circumvent the spirit of the rules the governing body will close it. Now why don't you engage your brain and show some foresight before opening your mouth. Pillock.

as far as your ignorance goes.

Oh dear kernowboy you really are flailing around now aren't you. Do you really think that Uefa hadn't considered all this at great length and in consulation with all member associations? The clarification more than 2 years ago was to made to answer just such questions in other words the 'loophole' was known and considered sometime back. In any case we have no problem meeting it the rules now and we won't have in the future. As I said before you deal only in contradiction and not reasoned argument.

Because I felt that you would benefit from greater understanding and appreciation of the rules. Silly of me I know.

K_chelski .. just to further your education - an article is a written composition on a subject usually published in a newspaper or a magazine; a 'thread' is more commonly used on a blog site as each item tends to be linked to a common theme - for example on this page Arsenal rather than a stand alone article not having any link to a previous submission: an author is a person who composes any written work .... therefore BigDanny is .. ergo .. the author (person who wrote it) of this 'thread' (written composition linked to a common theme) - hope this relieves you of YOUR ignornance. Have a good evening.

The author line is used by intelligent people,

What term would you use to describe the person who created the thread above?

K_chelski, I have no problem with Latins, Slav, Aryans etc. What I am saying is that when any sport suffers an excessive influx of competitors, the opportunity for local individuals suffer. The problem is the amount of money in the Premiership does compound this. A number of nations have actually taken steps to balance this up and what has happened is that sport has become even more popular. In Canada, the CFL introduced a quota on Canadians, that then attracted only the best Americans as the Canadian teams had to develop local players to fill their rosters and the skill levels of young Canadians increased to the point where some have moved to the NFL ... and the standard of the CFL has also markedly improved.

the goons wont buy english players, seems a bit anti english!

can't I get an answer?

Alas, it's just that the vast majority of english youngsters do not seem to have the technical ability of their european or south american counterparts. It IS a shame, it would be good to see more young english players at Arsenal, but alas they do not appear to have the requisite talent. Take bentley as an example, who appeared to have the technique, was not prepared to wait for his chance in the first team, and you cannot say that a bentley of 2-3 seasons ago deserved to displace a robert pires of the same period?

Arsene Wenger has stated that he envisages that by 2 years time, the English players currently coming through the Arsenal academy will be of the same technical capability of those from abroad. And this argument that has been trotted out for the past 3-4 years, that we are ruining English football (not saying you, though maybe you have...) by not giving english players a chance, it just does not hold up.

If we continually bring through these youngsters, then they unfortunately leave the club as they are not deemed sufficient quality, then we are continually supplying youngsters to the premier league, and right now, there are an awful lot of players who came through the Arsenal academy, who are forging successful careers for themselves in the top two leagues on english football. So we are in effect doing English football a good service, giving these young players top preparation for them to have a successful career in english football.

As has been mentioned before, there are precious few English players at ANY of the top four clubs who have come through the youth system in the past five years. Richardson coming through the ManUSA system was mentioned, and I'm sorry, i do not think he is good enough to play for England. We had Cole, who has since departed, Chelsea had Terry, Liverpool - Gerrard & Carragher (29 now). For the top four clubs, the pressure is so incessant for success to be achieved/maintained, that for any young player to be brought through, the manager has to be 100% positive that the risk is worth presevering with. It's just so much of a gamble these days, witness what Wenger has gambled in the belief that this squad will come good, allowing Vieira to leave to create room for Fabregas, allowing Henry to depart, jettisoning Sol Campbell. »»Arsene Knows««

Good point.

radar u have no clue what u r saying

lol. G4L, he said he is arsenal through and through!

I never said anything about having any restrictions...I was implying in my last post and the one before that, there is not even a mix of overseas and home grown players now.

Blaming club football for the lack of technique in english football is aiming at the wrong target. Faced with the financial demands of Wembley the FA chose to drop the plans for a 'Clairefontaine' style academy. If the FA can't take the development of English footballers seriously why should anyone else. When we needed a College the FA built a Cathedral - a place of worship instead of a place of learning.

And are you trying to say that Alumina was better than Stuart Taylor? Taylor never let you don't. What you are saying is that you'd rather pack your squad with average overseas players who collect their large wages and are happy not to be a 1st teamer rather than face the prospect of ambitious youngsters who say .. "I deserve a chance to prove whether I'm good enough or not" - David Bentley got 1 game .. just 1 game which is quite frankly ridiculous. Give a guy 15-20 games and you get a true measure. And if English players are so lacking in technique and talent, how did we get to the semi finals of the UEFA U21 Championship, run the eventual winners, Holland, right to the wire, whereas France and Spain didn't even get there? At last there's an Arsenal fan who knows what they are talking about - RADAR, I shall cease referring in derogatory terms about your fans as FINALLY there is one who gets it ... no-one says go to one extreme or another just a level playing field for all.

Aliadiere was 24 when he left while Bentley was 20. So the comparison is not relevant as Ali had 4 more seasons in which to play a further 28 games. In any case it was Bentleys decision to go. He knew he wasn't good enough to make it at Arsenal.

the difference is exactly the fat paychecks - English players are interested in that more than the foreign players, who actually value their football education and are prepared to wait for their chance. Bentley was behind Pires, Ljungberg, Reyes and thought he was good enough to play 1st team football. Now he is too tired to play for the U21.. ......and kernowboy, you keep avoiding one question all the time... how many young English prospects has your academy produced in the last 5 years? Where are they?

Again G4L, learn some literacy. I have already said we are about 5 years behind you in regard to what our academy will develop. Reyes a better bet than Bentley ... don't make me laugh, and Hleb has been an excellent buy at £9.5m - he's done nothing. How is it possible to tell if a player is good enough or not if given only 1 game? History is littered with players who were much better on match day than they ever were in training. And this nonsense about ambition. If you are told you have the talent, you're not given the chance to even display that talent and then you get a homesick mommy's boy signed ahead of you, it becomes self evident you're not going to be given a fair crack of the whip. 28 games in 4 years = 7 a season, 6 more than Bentley got allowed. And because of your cliques it would be obvious to an intelligent player that he'd only get a chance if he left. Interesting how a large number of managers rate Bentley very highly including Sir Alex.

again, bad call kb - at the time before bentley left he had been on loan at norwich and then blackburn - clubs that can afford to regularly take the kind of risks on young players, in the hope that their precocious talent may end up saving them from relegation battles, we were at that time fighiting it out for the title, not exactly an easy time to just drop in a young player and hope he delivers, if you eff up the league cos of that, he gets his confidence knocked. Bentley, if he had been prepared to stick it out at Arsenal, might well have come on in the same way he has at blackburn here.

You haven't answered my question - would you have played a young unproven-yet-talented bentley ahead of world class and consistent provider and goalscorer pires? would you play Andy Barcham ahead of Dimitar Berbatov? »»Arsene Knows««

You really do know nothing about football. Walcott was injured for 80% of the season and has recently had surgery to correct the shoulder problem he was having, how is that regression? How many games did stepanovs play for Arsenal and who was he impeding? Cygan over Upson was IMO 1 of Wengers few mistakes but Upson was demanding 1st team action. I dont hear Senderos who is the same age as Upson was when he left demanding the same things and he is a full international who has played at a world cup.

Is Wenger anti-German because he let Moritz Voltz go? or anti-American because he let Simek go? Maybe anti-Brazilian because he let Juan leave? Anti-Dutch even as Quincy was let go? Then again he is also anti-Dane as Svard didn't make it. Anti-Greek Tavlaridis? Anti-Czech Papadopulos? Or was it simply that like Bentley they were good players but just not good enough?

Amos, Wenger is also anti-Italian because of Lupoli.

Amos .. Quincy is Ghanian or at least has declared for the Ghanian team. Personally the fact that there one intelligent Radar amongst all the flotsam maybe affords a little hope that more intelligent Arsenal fans can be found. As it is, the rest of the Premiership will be delighted that very few talented young English players will be consider joining you - Nathan Porritt for one will run a mile before even thinking of such a stupid plan.

No - Quincy is Dutch, born in Amsterdam of Ghanain parents and holds a Dutch passport. He played for Dutch youth teams but has recently switched to Ghanain national side. As for talented English youth players you only have to compare the contributions we have made to recent U17 and U19 tournaments which is as good as any club in the country and much better than most. Certainly much better than your lot. Earlier this month 5 youths signed professional forms; I dutch, 1 portuguese, 1 pole and 2 English. You are persistent kernowboy but consistently wrong.

Amos, if he chooses to represent Ghana, then that makes him Ghanian. He's Dutch Ghanian or Ghanian but not Dutch.

In Italy when they banned and then restricted foreigners, there was a upsurge in the standard of the game and also the national team. Teams could only sign the BEST foreigners meaning that youngsters only learnt from the best, not having average players impeding their way. Managers and coaches would be compelled to make more effort on local players. The opposite thing has happened in Germany where there are so many mediocre foreigners signed it has had a negative effect on the national team but also on the standards. They are signed becasue they are cheaper. If restrictions were introduced, the price of domestic players would remain high - teams would then develop more youngsters themselves - and the price of domestic players would slowly fall.

so I guess Dudu is a Croatian as well? Born in Brazil with a Brazilian passport and parents, and only because he chose to play for Croatia makes him a Croatian. oh my

Of course DaSilva is Croatian - the same as Kuranyi and Klose are German. Personally I would not be disappointed if Chimbonda leaves. His temper will get him into serious trouble. And I would like to see Phil Ifil get a proper look as we have a couple of youngsters behind him in Chris Riley and Adam Smith. Ghaly has always been overrated, I am ambivalent about Zokora even though Wenger rates him - I think Barry would be a much better signing - and Tainio was a solid player who has been badly affected by injury. I think Jamie O'Hara deserves a look as does Kieran McKenna. Jamie Davis, if he shakes the injury bug, should be allowed to progress further, and in the long term Dean Parrett, has the potential to be his generations Steven Gerrard. G4L I have been consistently advocating a smaller 1st team squad a more chances for our talented youngsters since I joined 4 months ago. Murphy however was a panic buy.

I really like your line: "I would like to see"... the fact of the matter is - you won't. Unless you want any decent left midfielder/winger in the Premiership (Pedersen, Malouda, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rosicky, Young, etc.) to murder you from there or unless you want to finish ´closer to place 15 on the table. Klose is a German since his dad was ethnic German living in Poland. Kuranyi although born in Brazil is also a German because his dad is of German origin. And of couse Da Silva is Brazilian with a Croatian passport. There is no Brazilian minority living in Croatia, nor is one of his parents a Croatian. Admit you're wrong it is ok. I could understand your frustration at the lack of English players in the setups, but what is annoying is you pick Arsenal and keep banging that it is Arsenal's fault. Look around your team, and Liverpool and the chavs and Manure and see how many young English players they produce. In the last 2 years - ManYoo sold Ebans-Blake, Luke Steele, David Jones, two Irish lads, Nardiello (Welshman), Tierney, David Fox, 2 Scottish kids, Neil Wood, Colin Heath, Picken, Lee, and last but not least Eddie Johnson. Personally I do not go to the Vital Manure, but if I did, I suspect that I would see you there seething at their foreign policy - Nani, Anderson, Kuczak and Tevez are hardly English, are they? Why not go and give them a bit of your medicine. I could go on like this for most of the clubs in England, but seems that you are too stubborn to quit it.

"because the club and their fans are the most purid scum of the earth in the history of football" - there goes miles and miles of your argumentation down the drain. and btw, I am not English. you can hate me now as well ;)

G4L .. what a surprise .. does the scum have any English fans or is thats why no English fan supports them in the CL - I'll back ManU, Liverpool and Chavski when they play but never the Scum.

Did you support us when we won the cup winners cup in 1994? we were full of ur beloved English boys then!

The irony of foreigners criticising English people for saying that (allegedly) English clubs should make more effort to select English players in the English domestic league. Hahahahahahaha

nobody criticized "English people for saying that (allegedly) English clubs should make more effort to select English players in the English domestic league" you ignorant *****. You were accusing Arsenal and Brady's academy of being anti-English and preventing English talent to blossom which in turn hampers your (*****) national team. That is what I discussed. Furthermore, your hypocrisy continued as your academy and the academies of the English clubs you would support in Champions League (lasagne) have recently produced very close to zero players for their respective squads and consequently for McClaren's team full of bottlers. And in order to prove any of these points - I didn't know I had to be English. The envy, frustration and hatred towards Arsenal and moreover towards foreigners has consumed you and I am glad that there are few, if any, people who support Arsenal with similar points of view. You are a disgrace.

Envy towards foreigners ... ***** off!!! I count my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate enough to have been born British. Everyone else are just wannabes

kb - every time you try and make a point, you then take two steps back by saying things like that last post. »»Arsene Knows««

Hitler was Austrian, K_chelski. England for one produced a superior football league ... thats why you lot can't get enough of it

a superior football league, but as kevin said, it's largely down to the foreign players, and also the type of football, with it's end to end frenetic style (which some would say that, whilst exciting, is not necessarily the most advanced...). Yet I've also seen some truly turgid games involving prem teams, we even played in one last year.

it's a pity that our national team has underachieved for so many years... everyone harks on about euro 96 too, but conveniently forget we played pony in that too. Watching England play is one of the most frustrating experiences you can go through. And the whole adage about great players can always play together, why on earth can't the cream of english football ever gel as a unit, and produce a cohesive display? they seem incapable of it. They play as a disparate bunch of strangers, and it is not as though they have not played together enough. »»Arsene Knows««

" count my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate enough to have been born British. Everyone else are just wannabes" nationalism you idiot, nationalism.When I compared you to hitler, the first thing that crossed your mind was "we can't be alike because he is hungarian". I believe your grudge against foreigners goes far beyond football, but anyway, let's get back to what this is really about. Answer me, does it upset you that foreigners make your league the best in the world?

kernowboy, lmao, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary please , have a look , ever heard of it?Extreme nationalism that's what I am talking about.Hitler hated all sorts of people, above it all was the jews, I don't know what you hate(probably latins), but I am sure you hate a race. Even before the foreign players boom, England wasn't very sucessful, so what's your explanation?Young brazilians do not need to play at the top division to have success, many of them are bought in the second division. It's all about cost/benefit.

Please answer Kevin sir Kernow, why were England still s h i t when there was only a handful of foreigners playing in England? Also how did the so called 'Golden Generation' that was supposed to win us last years world cup come to be?

IMO England lacks unity, concentration, responsability of playing for their national team, and chemistry. A good manager always helps as well. Why buy the raw gem stone for 10m, if you can buy the diamond for 2m? Why spend time preparing ashley young to became an RVP, if you can buy an RVP for much less? And also, Kernowboy said the old english style is exciting, but everyone criticises their heir bolton I think, of long ball, cross cross, run run, tackle , long ball. One thing leads to another, it all depends on the manager, Ranieri bought Lampard, because he knew lampard would turn into a 30m+ player. Look at Eduardo DaSilva, left Brazil at the age of 15, never played top division football in Brazil, and is now going to play at Arsenal. It's all down to quality.

Add to that the celebrity culture of many young english players, who think that because they have made it onto the books of a pro0minent club, that have made it, and are the mutts nuts.

No offence intended to your club, Kevin, but that's what Cashley became, an aspiring Beckham-style celeb, and that, along with the whole 'crash my car at £55k' thing are what make me glad he is no longer here

The young foreign lads we have - you never hear of them out on the lash, or larging it with cheap tarts - they all seem to knuckle down and concentrate of learning their trade, which is as a footballer, not as a young bloke with a ferrari who chucks £3k at a night out at China White's without batting an eyelid. »»Arsene Knows««

copa america semi finals on in 20 mins Kev! confident?

lol at the commentator on gol tv "Forlan - touch of a bricklayer!", for me as a neutral I'm hoping for the Brazil Argentina final tho I'm sure you'd rather face the Mexicans Kev.

You lot arguing about foreign players, I can't even watch a goddamn match because there's no light in the stadium.

It's in! Goaaaaaaaaal! THE BEAST!!!!! JULIO BAPTISTA!

lol had 2 be Bappers

I'm jus killin time til Sat when we face the mighty Barnet lol, looks like we finally signed Sagna, not great news for Hoyte oh well, more fuel for the anti foreigner numbnuts.

It's all over! It's ALL OVER! WE ARE IN THE FINALS!!!Even though Gilberto Silva won't play in the final.Bye Bye Uruguay, after like 15 minutes of penalty kicks. WEE WON!

lmao, world cup semi finals and euro semi finals?Woow... the average foreigners are better than english foreigners, and they coast cheaper! So by your logics, a guy that has a brazilian mother, a brazilian father, born in brazil, but got a croatian citizenship , is croatian.But hitler that was born during the austro-hungarian empire can't be called hungarian? Let's wrap this hitler thing up, since you clearly avoid all the other points raised and shifted to the one you thought you actually had a chance of winning.I'm gonna close this part with a quote of yours :----- "ount my lucky stars every day that I was fortunate enough to have been born British. Everyone else are just wannabes"------ Other questions that I asked have been avoid, oh dear oh dear. Answer me, why pay 10m for an average british player, if you can pay 2m for an average foreign player?Is 8m the price to put England in another mighty semi final?

That wouldn't work as there isn't one winger, one midfielder, one defender. If I wanna buy fabregas, will I have to compare him to lampard? Or to a championship player? English players will adapt to the level they are required to play. And it will come to a point that their cost will decrease. That's gonna take some time.

Regarding the rather broad statement of how English players 'lose their way' while their colleagues don't, a way to prevent this would be to introduce a salary cap - maybe one thats age specific. Its fairly insulting and often completely inaccurate to say this is an accurate assessment though.

glory hunter? you know sh(i)t about me johnnyboy - I started following the Arsenal during the George Graham era when AFC was full of English players. Loved every one of them to bits. And I really feel sorry for you as your club has offered you zero glory and joy. The occasional win against the chavs and that's it. @kevin - congratulations on your win. To be honest, I like this Brazilian team far more then the one with Ronnie and the rest of the superstars. Kaka would be the only addition for me to this squad as it has much more ballance. And I agree on the 6-7 subs on the bench. I never understood why the EPL allows only 5 players. As far as quotas - I rest my case. Let mr. Proud-2-B-whatever here spout his garbage.

Yeah, it wouldn't hurt the existing foreigners, but it would encourage teams to invest in british players, and reward those that already do. Chelsea would have an extra sub available for having english players.And Arsenal would have walcott on the bench, one extra player. @ G4L , thanks, beside a slow first 15 minutes of the second half, the game was very exciting, too much exciting actually. Uruguay had the chance to win it , but he hit the post (and starting crying after) my heart was in my mouth. Then Lugano helped us. missing his penalty, and putting us in the final. Hopefully against argentina! And who the ***** is fernando(sub used by dunga)?????