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Fergie Expects Arsenal Challenge

Manchester United Red Sox manager Alex 'Purple nose'Ferguson says that the race for the Premiership will be a four way race next season.

United ran away with the Premiership last season, finishing 21 points ahead of Arsenal, but the Scot is no fool, and can obviously see that Arsenal will be there or there abouts next season.

United have done the most strengthening this summer with Owen Hargreavs arriving along with starlets Nani and Anderson, a total of around £50Million spending. Carlos Tevez also seems United-bound for a further £30Million.

Arsenal have also added to their squad, although not to the extent United have. Sagana, Fabianksi and Eduardo Da Silva have all arrived at The Grove this summer, although it would seem that only the latter will be first choice next season.


Speaking to Sky Sports Fergie said: 'There is no gap between the top four teams.

'We are happy with the signings we have made and we have a great chance but there is no complacency in terms of the challenge we will face from other clubs.

'Liverpool have bought five players, Arsenal have two or three and while Chelsea have only actually bought one, they have added a few others.

'It just tells you what a great desire there is amongst us all to win the Premier League.'


And to think Tottenhams fans believed Mourinho when he said they'll be title competitors next season. The term 'clutching at straws' springs to mind.






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The Journalist

Writer: Nick Simmonett  Mail feedback, articles or suggestions

Date:Sunday July 22 2007

Time: 2:57PM

Your Comments

Can't wait for the first whistle of the season to blow! Oh and I wouldn't write the teeny Totts off Simmo - if they sort out their defence, replace their goalie and start again with their midfield, they might catch us :-)
Andy-bayor
you know what Andy, you have a point...they are closer than I thought. :-P Although you did forget one thing...a new manager.
simmy8_2000
lol I forgot about that! Anyway, enough about them... check out the News & Media section and get posting that article onto the Front Page - you know the one from the telegraph about Brits etc... you know you want to, dont you? You do? oh ok.
Andy-bayor
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/07/22/sfnars122.xml That one?
Little Dutch
That be the one LD! I cut and paste half of it, and posted it with an opening paragraph in the News section of the forum...called it "We do British too". Seriously though, the article is an indictment to some of the sh(i)t-stirrers we get around here sometimes.
Andy-bayor
Absolutely, I also notice that the Spuds weren't mentioned in the article?
Little Dutch
Yep, don't even get me started on that dreadful little club! Honestly though, I'm chuffed and proud that people at our club are doing this and slowly making a difference. It must be hard hard graft to build an academy like that and patiently work at it, improve it, look after it, and watch it grow. I think we have to marvel a bit at those people beavering away out of the spotlight, and taking the club and even the national game forward.
Andy-bayor
Ah the smug congratulation back slapping of you lot. I doubt that Andy-bayor or Little Dutch would want to post the full article but here's the bit that reinforces what most people think ..... "Wenger has a reputation for nursing young continental talent at the expense of English players, forcing the likes of Steve Sidwell and England Under-18 captain Fabrice Muamba, who moved to Birmingham in May, to leave in search of first-team football. However, it seems the long-term goal is to field English players - heartening news for England coach Steve McClaren and the Football Association" .... the key words here are 'nuturing continental talent at the expense of .... ' & 'SEEMS' .... its a pity he didn't see the error of his ways 10 years ago and based on his track record I wonder how many will even get a sniff of the reserve let alone first team. Whilst most Premiership teams have nothing to crow about, at least they make the effort to try to sign talented players from Championship sides strengthening the depth of football in this country ... local lads joining local teams in the hope that good play will lead to an opportunity at a big club.
kernowboy
Oh and there is also an article in the main part of the paper - here it says that 73% of the players in Serie A are Italian and over 60% of players regularly performing in La Liga 1 are Spanish .... Italy are the current World Cup holders and an Italian club are the current CL holders fielding I think 7 Italians in their winning team. The Spanish league is rated the best in Europe. In the Premiership only 42% of the players are English. The point is excessive purchasing of non-descript continental players does nothing to assist the quality of the individual teams or of the national side. It should be mentioned that in the FULL article, the comments were also not so flattering about the fielding of a full XVI of nonEnglish players so Andy-bayor - go and look up what 'indictment means' ... Little Dutch, Arsenal were mentioned as they are regarded of the pioneers of the problem that is now trying to be corrected with even Wenger seeing what a mistake he has made.
kernowboy
Sir Alex complements you're club and you can only describe him with personal abuse and name calling - what a classy set of supporters you must be ... oh and 'Scot' is spelt with one 't'
Gromit
Purple nose is not an insult, it's a nickname. Indeed Scot is spelt with one 't'...it's called a typo.
simmy8_2000
Kernowboy, Serie A is well known as a league in decline, La Liga is considered the second best league in the world by just about every pundit I've heard talk about it, second the The Premiership. The artilce says that only Wigan and 'boro have a higher ratio of English players in their academy, I would say that is the most important point in the article, espically considering the article title is "Arsenal lead the way for English Youngsters." No mention of how Chelsea are doing well with English talent is there? No. Arsenal have a training centre dedicated to devolping the technical ability of young ENGLISH players. So you can shove all your word twisting where the sun don't shine!
simmy8_2000
good old fergie, playing the mind games and putting the boot in, long may it continue
Tonytime
Dearie me kernowboy, great barrel-scraping there and the posts of a tight-fisted resentful spirit, unable to offer even the tiniest bit of credit. Non-descript continental players? Surely that's not Rocha, Tainio et al. I'm bloody delighted about what we are doing! It's good to have roots in the area, and it's great that we are actively trying to make a difference from our local point that will hopefully radiate out to the rest of the country as well as the national side. This is part of a long-term plan to develop local talent rather than a flash in the pan, so yes - it merits a good old slap on the back.
Andy-bayor
Did you try any of those phone numbers I gave you kb? I suspect not.
Little Dutch
Good article there Andy. Good to read a perspective on offer (which might not suit kernowboy's version of Arsenal).
prits
get real guys, arsenal are one four the big four clubs in the prem, as such should have at least 3 or 4 players in the england squad, Foreign National managers must love clubs like arsenal, who are undermining the National side dramatically. Do you really, i mean really think these overpaid imports care about the club, the people , the supporters etc, how many of them stay in london when their contracts are up. Arsenal sadly barely qualify as an English club at all anymore.
Chris is Here
English owners...English youth players. Ashley Cole, Sol Campbell, Jermain Pennant, Steve Sidewell, Upson...
Goofle
Chris, kerno, agreed if the guys blindly supporting the track record of the last few years and the position the club is in now, where any more blinkered, they would be running in the 4.30 at chepstow ! lol
laughing norm
goofie, last i saw most of them aren't actually arsenal players anymore, how many current players ?, somtimes you can be a better supporter by speaking out against things than just by trying to justify the unjustifiable
laughing norm
Walcott, J Hoyte, Connolly, Murphy, Randall, Gilbert, Butcher, Garry, G Hoyte, Rodgers, Simpson, Elston, Steer, Gibbs, Dunne, Lansbury, Thomas, Watt, Ayling and Eastmond...Not all first team but Connolly, Simpson, J Hoyte, Walcott, Randall, Lansbury and Murphy are the good ones.
Goofle
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/07/22/sfnars122.xml : Pretty much justifies us.
Goofle
Transfers in to Arsenal FC (since 01/Jan/2007) Transfer Date Player From Club Fee 12/Jul/2007 Bakari Sagna Auxerre Undisclosed 03/Jul/2007 Harvard Nordtveit FK Haugesund Undisclosed 02/Jul/2007 Eduardo da Silva Dinamo Zagreb Undisclosed 26/May/2007 Lukasz Fabianski Legia Warszawa Undisclosed case closed
Chris is Here
well i sure hope the youth can come through and grab a place in the side cos in the past most moved on to get a game.
laughing norm
Squad.... Abou Diaby Alexandre Song Aliaksandr Hleb Armand Traore Bakari Sagna Carlos Vela Cesc Fabregas Denilson Pereira Neves Eduardo da Silva Emmanuel Adebayor Emmanuel Eboue Fran Merida Freddie Ljungberg Gilberto Silva Harvard Nordtveit Jay Simpson Jens Lehmann Johan Djourou Jose Antonio Reyes Justin Hoyte Kerrea Gilbert Kolo Toure Lukasz Fabianski Manuel Almunia Mathieu Flamini Nicklas Bendtner Philippe Senderos Robin van Persie Theo Walcott Tomas Rosicky Vito Mannone William Gallas ....thats 3 out of 32 !, or 9% !!!, below 1 in 10 players !!!!
laughing norm
Cool....the same argument again, for the tenth time. Is it gonna start differently this time? Hmm...
k_chelski
If the English players arent good enough they dont get through. We have given enough of them a chance. Its up to them to step up. I for one would much rather have a team that plays good football than one who plays the English way and never win anything.
Goofle
ok, but the other big three of the four seem to manage it, all of which have significantly more British and English first team squad players.
laughing norm
But they dont play beautiful football. Well Man U are OK but England dont produce many good attractive (footbalistically) footballers and when they do they cost dosh. Rooney + Walcott are examples. So you have to go with technically gifted foreigners. If there were proper academies like clairfontane in France then there would be more to go around. I would love 11 english players but at the mo there is only 3 players who would fit our style who are English. Walcott, J Cole and Rooney. The others (attackers) are too physical and not technically gifted. Even Gerrard wouldnt fit our style.
Goofle
I cant say i agree with that assesment, ferdinand bridge n terry could be the back four, carrick n hargreaves easily in the midfield, lots and lots of players could fit the bill, andthere would be a lot more to chose from iclubs invested in youth. Since Vierra went the club desperately needs a gifted midfield enforcer, to stop the out muscling that happens, Gerrard, Scholes even at 30plus, i dont buy the argument at all, sorry. Arsenal will continue to be criticised as long as thery have 3 British squad players, and quite rightly. i repeat, if those blindly supporting the track record of the last few years and the position the club is in now, were any more blinkered, they would be running in the 4.30 at chepstow ! lol
laughing norm
I think goofle's point was that Ashley Cole, Sol Campbell, Jermaine Pennant and David Bentley were hardly the most loyal, teary eyed, gritty Gunners on offer. Just as Lampard and Defoe dumped on West Ham, Teryy and Lampard are holding Chelski to ransom, Gerrard's constant "I'm staying, I'm going" mucking around with Liverpool. Whereas Arsenal managed to hold onto Bergkamp, Vieira and Henry for a very long time. Footballers are generally mercenaries (Cole, Lucas Neill etc) with a few notable exceptions (Carragher, Bergkamp). It's not nationality, it's personality. To think motherwise is just so infuriatingly driven by the media, you might as well have a copy of the daily express stuffed up your bum, cos it's operating your voicebox and your brain.
Little Dutch
LR, how much would that little lot set us back? More money than we've got. And how many youth products have Liverpool, United and Chelsea brought through since 2000? Kieran Richardson and John Teryy between them.
Little Dutch
I said English players that would fit our style who are Attackers not defensive midfielders you ****. Read the post! Obviousley Hargreaves could play for us. But he isnt an attacker. Im on about players like Nolan, Barton, Lampard and Owen. These players are English but arent technically gifted enough to play for Arsenal.
Goofle
LD I agree its personality thats not the argument. I think when you start to lower the tone of debate like you have, it shows up the paucity of your argument. I think the fans of clubs like Arsenal, and yes Chelsea & Liverpool are deluding themselves, the success they now have unlike of years ago, has less and less to do with the towns and localities they represent and does not reflect on the area, the locality or the supporters. Its all just big business, with players and staff doing it for themselves despite what they say to the contrary, they have by and large just hijacked clubs to do it with and hoodwinked supporters into believing they have a say or are included or represented at all. What do African, Portuguese, Japanese, French etc players, know of or even care about the local population, its culture, its employment, its identity with the football clubs they support. Arsenal do play some beautiful football at times, but so do Man utd. Smaller FL clubs are doing more to keep the game alive in Britain than they should, if you guys complain about the national team in the future, you will need to do some serious self appraisal with regard to hypocrisy.
laughing norm
it is so stupid to assume that wenger cares about a players nationality all that matters is his footballing ability !!!!!!!!
HENRY`14
I dont give a ***** about the England National team. If the Premiership was all foreign players and therefore a more attractive Premiership. I really dont give a ***** now as long as the footy is good.
Goofle
well i can see that all these technically inferior !!!! british players, playing for Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, would not fit the style, hell they are actually in sides winning things, how inferior is that, get real, bolton n other sides scared the pants of arsenal last year, brilliant lets be technically gifted also rans, back to chepstow im afraid.
laughing norm
you dont care about the national team, i am stunned and saddened, guess what Arsene Wenger cares about his, Mourinho cares about his, Ferguson cares about his, Rafa cares about his, guys thanks for this hour I am learning more about the problems of English football than I ever expected.
laughing norm
Apparently over the last 5 years, La Liga is rated the top league in Europe. Ooh and now that you've introduced this, hasn't Connolly just had to move to Colchester?
Gromit
Simmo, maybe you might also want to read the entire article including the bits not printed on the internet!!! 12 months of effort does not outweigh 10 years of behaviour ... and lets not forget, the youngster in other academies are likely to get to the first team, at your lot they have virtually no chance.
kernowboy
While I agree with em goons about the best player plays rule, I don't agree with the "personality" one. Gallas is a moaner, not even going to mention Henry. Fabregas wants the glory that comes with being a captain, but doesn't want to fully commit himself to the club. Lampard and terry might be holding chelsea on ransom. But they said they want to stay, Henry holded Arsenal on ransmon, then left.
k_chelski
Which youngsters kb? King and......... Laughinh norm, I'm not sure if you've ever been to Islington, but I can assure you it ain't exactly white bred, it's a diverse borough in a diverse city. To imply that David Bentley from Peterborough cares anymore about the locality of Arsenal than Kolo Toure is a notion I find, frankly, offensive. I agree with your points about football being a big business now and its removal from the fans, but that is as much to do with English players (did Defoe engineer his move from West Ham out of love for Mile End?) as anyone else. I also don't support the national team, I wish them no particular harm, I'm just apathetic. I'm not gonna support a team because someone tells me I should and I'm not going to fake a passin for something based on geography. All I want for Arsenal is that we have the best players available to us, regardless of where they are from, I am absolutely comfortable that our club and our manager aim for this with no ulterior motives. Do you know the first time we fielded a non English XVI I had absolutely no idea until everybody started banging on about it (I do remember winning that game 5-1 and playing glorious football). I guess I just don't look at people through those eyes, I never will and the small minded rants of people locked in the dark ages will do nothing to persuade me otheriwse. In the words of Bill Hicks, it was a round world the last time I checked, and anybody with passion for Arsenal is absolutely welcome.
Little Dutch
Its not like the English players we have had or currently have deserve a position in the team is it? At least players like Toure and Fabregas worked thier asses off to get into the team. If Bentley tried as hard as those players he would still be at Arsenal and in the first 11. The nature of English players is to be greedy.
Goofle
I'm not sure I'd say that, for instance Hoyte has fought very hard and improved greatly this season, but I know that if there is to be a restriction on foreign players, the likes of Bentley etc are hardly going to be motivated to fight for thier place because they'll have a free ticket into the team. This will be of completely detrimental to the national side.
Little Dutch
LD, now you are trying to play the racist card in your favour, which is again bringing the debate down. If Arsenal and Wenger think that the best players are indeed from France, Spain etc, that is their choice. What happens in another ten years when the national team is even poorer through no local talent being supported, the league will diminish in importance, and the game will be in serious difficulties. At leaast at some clubs they have a team of which some or a good proportion of the side is made up of academy graduates or players who have some links to the town, and care about the locality and understand its people, and can go someway to properly representing them, in return the supporters who identify with one of their own, feel rightfully included. The policy being followed by Arsenal spells death or at least major difficulties for the national game and therefore for Arsenal eventually, as more and more people feel apathetic about their clubs as you do for the national side now. Whilst you may not agree with me, i respect your right to your opinion, In conclusion I can honestly say that this exchange has been one of the saddest I have undertaken in terms of my optimism for English football. Good luck, ill be back, and vive la difference ! p.s - I really like croissant.
laughing norm
You must understand the view of the Arsenal supporter. We dont care about the nationality, of course English would be a prefferance if they were good enough, we care about the players ability and loyalty to the club. Kolo Toure is the greatest example. He is an inspiration to all Arsenal fans. We all love this guy and see in him what we would see in ourselves if we played for Arsenal. Commitment, loyalty and fire in our belly. Maby we wouldnt have the talent he does but as far as seeing one of your own in action, no-one comes nearer to that than Kolo Toure. I wouldnt like him any more if he was English. I love him so much because he is Arsenal. If you could name an Englishman available to Arsenal who is better than any of our first 11 i would like to see him? The truth is that you cannot. The press and other football fans can accuse Arsenal and its supporters of not caring about the National team and so on but you must remember that Arsene Wnger is not the manager of England. He manages Arsenal Football Club and i wouldnt have it any other way.
Goofle
Also, Arsenal try our hardest to get English talent in our team but the majority fail but then go on to other clubs. The ones who do get through usually make the England team. We dont buy English Talent to show off like Man Utd with Rooney and Rio. We try to produce it. Even Theo comes into the latter category because he came to Arsenal as a fast youngstr who could finish. Now he ia a skillful winger who had improved immensley.
Goofle
England have had a solid core of 11 English players on the pitch, how come those apparently awesome players not won owt since 66?
saisho
just when I thought we had enough of this rather BORING debate, here we go again... when will people understand that Arsenal and moreover Wenger will never pay the 16 mil for Bents and Carricks, and never play the Bentleys and Sidwells in front of Pires and Vieiras. And before you mention players like Cygan, Hleb, etc and compare them to the ever successful Upson and Bentley you will never fond these players moaning about their salaries, playing time etc., but are willing to accept either their roles or to work harder and improve. And anyway if, for example, Bentley was any good, why would Fergie, and even Fat Jol miss out on his talents? If anyone thinks Sid will play in front of Fat Frank, Ballack, Mikel and even Makalele is nuts. The case of Cashley I refuse to explain and so I close this case again.
G4L
As I love to keep pointing out, the English Premier league was 97% English back in 1995-96. How that'd work out for the World Cup squad? Blaming England's lack of success on the lack of English players in the domestic flight is nothing but a cop out. England hasn't produced a player anywhere near the caliber of a Pele, Maradonna or Zidane in their history (and please, don't give me Gazza)...why? Where's England's Henry, Kaka or Messi, a midfield or forward player who can take over a game for stretches by himself? The bottom line is that England's development and nuturing of talent at the younger stages has been abysmal compared to other countries for 40 years. People who keep pointing to the lack of English talent in the EPL simply miss the point, even more so when a league with nothing but English players wasn't even good enough to send the country to the **** World Cup.
Shinobi
*find
G4L
Well said to Laugh Norm, most of these comments just dont seem to get the point, about the future of the game, and a major English club contributing virtually nothing to its ongoing national side and development, it is so incredibly short sighted as to almost beggar belief, short sighted because if it continues the league and national game will crumble and then Arsenal will be a big fish in a very small pond instead of the large pool its in now. WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris is Here
sorry, you made me fall asleep with that "speech" but then you shouted wake up and i thought you were going to make a real point...
Goofle
so Arsenal is to blame, heh... petty souls. As usual, point the finger at someone else. Like the story with the man, his mirror and his window. Every time he'd do something right he'd wake up and look in the mirror, smiling gleefully and congratulating himself. Every time something wrong went for him, he'd look through the window and point the finger at someone else. When will you start looking for the culprits in the house of the FA that reeks of incompetence and amateurism? When will you ask for their heads and ask yourselves the questions why these overpaid primaddonas cannot get past a quarter final in any competition? Why the mighty Rio, Terry, Cashley and sis Neville, complimented by Englands no.1 (fart) Blobbo, Carrick, Rooney, Beckham, and the two mf 'generals' Fat Frank and StevieG who alone are paid more than 3/4 of the Arsenal team together can't get past Portugal? That is REALLY Arsenal's fault, isn't it?
G4L
There is one simple fact that underlys this entire debate: if you are good enough, you will always rise to the top - whether you're English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish or whatever. So the argument that Arsenal's policy of buying foreign and not giving English players a chance detracts from the national team is baseless, because if they don't make it at Arsenal, English players will always make it elsewhere if they're good enough. As for representing the locality etc, well that didn't even exist before the influx of foreign players. Chris Waddle, Paul Gascoigne, Gary Lineker and Steve Archibald didn't come from N17 did they? The great Liverpool sides of the 70s and 80s had several Scots and Irishmen I recall. That didn't help the England team either, did it?!
Gooner_Vin
We dont care that he played for spurs. We just know that Gazza isnt as good as the other greats mentioned. If Gazza is englands greatest ever player (hahaha!) I am ashamed of the nation. We should have our own Zidane, Pele, Van Basten or Maradonna. Gazza comes nowhere near them.
Goofle
The article in the Telegraph IS ABOUT THE FUTURE and about the fact that only 'Boro and Wign have a higher ratio of Englishmen in their youth ranks. If Arsenal can produce more English talent then great, if not, then I couldn't care less, as long as it's not to the detriment of the club. You cannot blame the continual failure of the England team on Arsenal's lack of English players, it's just utter *********. Look at England's X1. Robbo - came through Leeds academy (a league 2 side), Neville (United), Rio (W.Ham), Terry (chelsea), Cole (Arsenal), Beckahm (United), Lampard (west Ham), Gerrard ('Pool), J.Cole (W. Ham), Owen ('Pool) Rooney (Everton). Notice not a single Spurs, Bolton, Villa, Newcastle or Pompey player in there, so why does everyone jump on Arsenal's back? The fact of the matter is that the reasons there are few English players in Arsenal's squad are A) lack of technical ability in most. B) Overpriced. C) Over-paid and D) ***** attitude. Arsenal have set abotu changing that by not only investing more in youth devolpment than any other Premiership team, but by also building a training centre DEDICATED to the TECHNICAL devolpment of YOUNG ENGLISH players. So, I would say Arsenal are doing more for the national team than most.
simmy8_2000
simmo strikes again!
G4L
And one further point from me. If anything, Arsenal ARE helping the national side because the English kids of today are watching football of the highest level, the way it should be played and with a great emphasis on technique. They will naturally and unconciously absorb this, as well as try to emulate it, and then grow up to be far better than they would be otherwise.
Gooner_Vin
Ive been watching this debate from afar, if its about the future now it was in 97, and look what arsenal have done in the last ten years, reduced a major force in the english game to 3 first team squad players who wont even get in the side. If any of the people on here defending Arsenal are English I would be surprised and very *****ed off. I will leave you to your self congratulatory, self delusional, short sighted, and frankly reverse racist site. Its like reading a moonies training manual, apart from a few sane voices you are all brainwashed.
taylorhill teabags
I wonder if Spurs won the Premier League and Champions League with a team 11 foreign players, whether we'd hear any such argument from the Spurs fans. Hmmm...let me think about that one...
Gooner_Vin
And the last two managerial appointments by Spurs were also...yes, those national team spoiling foreigners. How is an English manager supposed to get top level experience by managing a world giant like Tottenham Hptspur FC when they seem to hire foreign managers??
Gooner_Vin
It's the RAAAAAAGGGGGGGEEEEEE G4L, it just builds up. ;-)....excellent point Vin. I am English, and my opinion is that many Englishmen think "we invented it, we'll play it our way." While teams like Brazil, Argentina, France and Holland have looked and thought "We can better the game if we become more technical, use more skill etc." And they're right! Teabags, what's self congratulatory, delusional, short sited and reversed racist about the fact that we as a club are trying to better the standard of English football? I'm not saying we're the only club doing it, but I'm not aware of any other club with a centre dedicated to the technical side of the game for young english players, are you? Infact, this whole debate isa waste of time. It's not our responsibility to make sure the English national team is great, it's the responsibility of The FA, and it is they who has REDUCED funding for grassroots football over the last few years, and continues to do so. So, if you want to start pointing the finger of blame for the short-comings of England, look to the Football assocation, not Arsenal.
simmy8_2000
Gooner Vin, re spurs probably not, but this aint about spurs its about Arsenal, why change the subject to spurs, its got ***** all to do with them, and I am not a spurs sympathiser, but what you say about English kids watching Arsenal is utter *********, most of em know the only chance they have under the current regime is if they change their name to Pierre, Pedro, or come from Africa.
Chris is Here
Why should this be just about Arsenal Chris? You and your fellow Arsenal-bashers are saying that we are responsible for the demise of the English national team. Arsenal alone cannot be blamed for that. Complete *********. What about the players under Wenger who have had the names "Sol, Theo, Justin, David, Ashley, Matthew, Francis and Jermain," to name but a few.
simmy8_2000
you guys are unreal and teabags is right, brainwashed dont cover it. If in doubt bring spurs into it, so we can deflect the argument, nobody mentioned spurs, It really is so parochial, and its trying to deflect light away from the emirates poor history. you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. Goota go it must be time for the Arsenal medicine, Altogether now, Arsenal good, Spurs bad, Arsene good, English lazy, English crap, Arsenal technically superior, Man Utd n Chelsea fluke, fluke fluke their titles n cups. To think i was a fan, cheers guys..... eyes wide open
Chris is Here
good point teabags, its all gone quite on the are they English front, 15 love to teabags
Tonytime
Chris, what I say about English kids isn't utter **********. I wasn't making the point that they would necessarily end up playing for Arsenal, more that kids watching high quality football while they are growing up, with an emphasis on technique, will undoubtedly be influenced by that. It's your point that is utter ............, because Ashley Cole made it through at Arsenal at the expense of a Brazilian, Theo Walcott still joined Arsenal, and Justin Hoyte signed a long-term contract. You know why? Because they know that at Arsenal if you're good enough, young players always get a chance. That's why we've got all those English youngsters in our academy.
Gooner_Vin
Well done Gooner Vin .. now explain these foreign managers signings of Jenas, Carrick, Huddlestone, Bent, Dawson, Robinson, Alnick, and Lennon etc as well as their statements that they believe with creating a core English team mixed with astute foreign acquisitons? We are talking about opportunities for players - the moment one or two fans come and actually provide a very strong and coherent argument, you try to widen it as far as possible .... it does seem that the guy who provided the stats at the top has actually bothered to read the entire article in the paper- if these stats are accurate it does suggest a) a link between a strong league and a good percentage of national players playing in that league b) the success of the national team representing that league - and Simmo, whilst you may criticise the decline of Serie A, they still had a team who 1) won the CL 2) did so with a majority of national players in that starting line up 3) contributed the bulk of players to the team that won the World Cup. I'd love that sort of decline.
Gromit
yeah right, youve got some of those english kids in the academy because of the mounting criticism, and the club unlike you guys knows its losing its core support. very quiet on the nationality front i make that 30 love
Tonytime
And I refer to my earlier point - which is completely logical: if you are good enough, you will ALWAYS rise to the top. In any sport or any field. So if it's the English national team you are worried about, then don't, because the best English players will always get there. Whether it's at Arsenal or somewhere else is irrelevant (unless of course you have some reason to dislike and castigate Arsenal - which is what I suspect is really going on here).
Gooner_Vin
Chris, what you and the others are saying is that Arsenal are to blame for the lack of English players and that we will be the death of The Premiership. If you tried to debate the points brought up then you would see that it's not an attempt to defelct attention at all, but you cannot discuss the demise of the PL and put it all down to Arsenal, it's just not cricket! Who ever said anything about Arsenal good, spurs bad (that part is true) but who ever mentioned it or any of that other rubbish in the second half of your post? United are also fantastic to watch, but they can afford to spend £18M on Carrick, £30M each on Rooney and Rio and £17M on hargreaves. That's £95Million on 4 players, Arsenal simply cannot afford to do that. So instead Arsenal get Fabregas, Van Persie, Toure and Gilberto who cost a total of £10.25Million. See the difference? If English players were more techniclly gifted and weren't so over-priced, you would see more at Arsenal! The academy has some fantastic prospects in, and we'll see them coming through over the next few years.
simmy8_2000
i really am going now, but i do/did love arsenals style of football at times it is breathtaking, ,no English kids will come through unless ENGLISH clubs support ENGLISH players, I am not a racist but fear for the future of the game, like it or not Arsenal is in London, ENGLAND, not france or Spain and has a duty to its supporters the majority of which are English to connect with them and represent them as a projection and representation of the local community, not imported journeymen mecenaries.
Chris is Here
Man this is getting interesting third time of asking nobody comes back with an english nationality, perhaps that explains this site. thats got to be 40-love, and almost game over.
Tonytime
Gromit, Jol doesn't decide on the signings at spurs, it's comolli. You provide some good facts there about the Italian situation, but they didn't deserve to win the WC. But, at the end of the day, Arsenal cannot be blamed for the demise of The PL, espically when it hasn't even happened! The fact that the redevolpment of our youth facilities has just been completed, and as I said, we recently opend a centre dedicated to the technical devolpmet of ENGLISH players. It cost £4Million! Do you know of any other clubs with such a facility? And what do you think of the fact that The FA are reducing spending on youth devolpment?
simmy8_2000
So by your reasoning, Manchester united should buy alot of asian players, because they like, several millions of asian fans.
k_chelski
thats gotta be game over, not a one comeback not a single one, on nationality of posters about a debate on arsenal and english players. no wonder the club are worried about losing their core support. the penny has finally dropped.
Tonytime
Tony, I already said that I'm English. Is that what you're getting at? The lack of English supporters now aswell? Oh dear oh dear.
simmy8_2000
oh dear oh dear, am i missing something or is this debate, looking at the postings as much anti the clubs policies as pro, again if im reading it rightly mostly from people who care about the club, oh dear oh dear would sum it up
Tonytime
Just out of curiosity Tony, what's your political orientation? Wouldn't happen to be the BNP would it? We live in a muli cultural society, with multi cultural fans. That's not just Arsenal, that's football as a whole, if you cannot deal with that then find another sport to follow. Come on, name me another club that spent £4Million on a centre dedicated to devolping young english talent? As far as I'm aware, only Barcelona spend more on youth devolpment a season than Arsenal, but I don't know that for sure.
simmy8_2000
And tony, instead of just spouting rubbish, try answering some points! Like the fact the FA are cutting spending on Youth devolpment to fund an £800Million waste of a stadium (it's fantastic, but ridiculos money).
simmy8_2000
Lets put it this way. There is Scott Parker in one room. He changes gis name to Cesc Fabregas. There is Cesc Fabregas in another room. He changes his name to Scott Parker. Arsene Wenger takes a look at both players. He looks at the CV which has the name of the player and the identity. Remember, the identity has been reversed. Wenger then says to both of them "Show me what you got" and gives them a training session each. Wenger has to sign one of these players. Arsene Wenger signs Scott Parker (Cesc Fabregas) later he is told that Scott Parker (Cesc Fabregas) is actually a Spaniard with a different identity. Wenger says "I dont care, he is better than that other player" its that simple!!!
Goofle
Smoke that pipe through the arse with a blow job!!!!
Goofle
simmy, i dont know about your figures, i honestly dont, but i guess i could check em out, no i am not a BNP party supporter, infact i am honestly very anti racist (honestly), however i am very concerned about the state of the game I love, and like it or not Arsenal have far, far , far fewer players of British origin than any other club in England and indeed of host nation status if you look at Europe e'g an Italian club with few italians etc. Far fewer being a country mile and more, the club is so out of line it is almost unseemly. My concern is for football in the UK, and in my opinion Arsenal whilst playing some great football have damaged its long term future, not on their own, far from it, but the club is the most serious offender. Just what is multi cultural about 3 from 32, to me multi cultural is embracing all, not just a few, how does that represent English society or even the North London population. If i were a young Irish kid from Kilburn, why would i go support Arsenal, i guess now i would go watch Fulham, their are loazds of other examples etc, etc. It is just so massively out of line, if the club had three or four lads in ok, but its usually one or none, its just not representative anymore.
Tonytime
Im going along with chris, goofie your lowering of the tone is more offensive than anything i can say, and i further note no more come backs on nationality, there is racism eveerywhere and on this site it sure aint coming from me.
Tonytime
Good, some proper debate. Arsenal's youth academy used to be ***** poor, I can admit that. Players like Adams, Dixon, Winterburn and Parlour were the kind of player suited to English football when they came though the academy. But the arrival of so many foreign players has changed the game in this country. While there is still a very physical aspect to the Premiership, it also demands a levl of technical ability that is rarely met by English players. Arsenal's increase in revenue over the last 6 years has allowed them to invest heavily in youth devolpment. I know for a fact that we invest more than any other Premiership club in youth devolpment, but I don't know what the case is accross Europe. You cannot deny that Arsenal play the most technical game in England, which means that many English player simply would not fit into the set up. We've also been unluck witha few English players. If Bentley and Upson had been prepared to wait for their chance then they would both be in the starting X1 now in my opinion, if Jeffers hadn't turned out the be complete pants, he would still be with us and if Pennant hadn't turned into a little Chav (along with Cole) then both of those would be in the first team or first team squad now. It's just the way it's worked out. However, I know of several fantastic prospects in Arsenal's academy. Jay Simpson (the first man to score a hat-trick at Ashburton Grove) is the most promising player of our current crop, a similar type of player to Baptista, likes to come from deep, making late runs into the box. As I said earlier, it would be nice if Arsenal and indeed the rest of the big 4, could produce more home-grown talent, but at the end of the day it's not their responsibility, it's up to the national assocation.
simmy8_2000
Tony, which team do you support? And what comes first, club or country? And what matters more, nationality or ability?
simmy8_2000
Who gives a flying fudge what nationality people are? There are 60 million englishmen in the world, and another 5 billion world wide of different nationalities. You're going to tell me more englishmen watch English football than the global sum of foreigners? Apart from the fact that international football is boring as hell, and completely irrelevant now, about as irrelevant as nationality apart from the bigoted and 'patriotic' (give me a break) - the 'englishness' is even more irrelevant to the billions of African, American, Australian, Asian and European fans of the English Premier League.
Jammathon
What would Jesus do?
k_chelski
What has that got to do with it? What has religion got to do with football fullstop? Nadda, nothing, zero, zilch.
simmy8_2000
Remember when all the myopic twits were insisting that England's next manager be English, and that Sven oughta get thrown overboard even though he'd only lost like 4 meaningful games as England manager during his tenure? So he gets cast aside, and after spectacularly **** up the Luiz Felipe Scolari hiring (in part due to the myopic rantings from the media twits), hired Steve McLaren who was ushered in with a blaze of glory. How's that hiring worked out? Tell you how...he needed David 'now plays in the world's best beer league lolz' Beckham to save his ass. The England FA is one of the most incompetent sports outfits on the planet, and until it gets an enema from the top down, nothing is going to change.
Shinobi
lmao, simmy , Jesus knows the answer for everything. :p, what would he do in this case?Just think like him, and the debates will cease.And I was just messing around.
k_chelski
Well you know, in the interesting of clean debate and all that rubbish! lol.
simmy8_2000
just checking back, simmo is the only one to come out as english, despite numerous prompts to do so, i guess that the rest are not, my guess is this is not a predominantly english supported site, which gven the side it represents is not surprising, and not that it matters one jot, at all, infact it explains many postings on this site, not least the very over the top defensive answers to a teeny weeny, minor , smalltime bit of debate on Arsenals lack of English players. Talk about chips on shoulders and over sensitive, hit a nerve or what. Its been like route canal treatment with no anesthetic, ooooouuuuchhh. Who do you think your kidding. To quote k chelski, but in the form of an exclamational statement. jeessssuuuus
Tonytime
k chelski, if you really are a christian, you know what the bible says about denying it, so dont say you are messing around, if your not, you have been a fool, either way seems to me you have denied your beliefs !!!
taylorhill teabags
lol, I said I was messing around because this concerns football, not religion, jesus man , I was just joking around like I am doing every time the same debate goes on. But I do believe in god.And I see jesus every day.Well, at least my friend Jesús, mexican bloke, really nice guy.In all seriousness though, soz if the previous joke hurt any christian. Didn't mean to do so, sorry taylor hill tea bags
k_chelski
Tony, the responses do appear to be a tad defensive, and the reason for that is that we get our 'friendly' neighbours from down the road, constantly giving us grief about this supposed bias in Arsenal policy. So you can forgive us the odd dig about the Spuds when it comes to this debate, I hope.
prits
I did not want to be drawn into this debate but is it now a crime to be English and proud of it? When you see people in other sporting activities proud to be playing for England why do I have to be ashamed? I love my country and would dearly love if Arsenal returned a team as in the 30's when seven of the England team were all from Arsenal; I don't think that has ever been bettered. Do I love the present Arsenal team of course I do did I love the Arsenal teams that used to be mainly Irish and Scots you bet I did. I think Arsenal and all the other football teams have a responsibility to produce the best team they can; no matter where the player comes from. If Pele had been playing for Arsenal in the past I would have lauded his performance as I do and been very proud he played for us the same as I praise Ces. But I still think there is a major role for the FA to put the money they receive from clubs throughout the country into improving local facilities, the best coaches no matter where they come from and providing incentives for the future of English football.
alwaysgunner
There are two basic points here, aside from all the political manouvering. Firstly, in my opinion, each football club has a responsibility to itself, Arsenal has a responsibility to the players/ supporters and staff of Arsenal Football Club, whether they be from Isilington or India. At present, as a South Londoner (yes, I am English), I have no problems with the board or the manager's policy. The F.A has a responsibility to produce talent for the nation, refusing to fund the youth centre of excellence that Brooking and Wilkinson worked so hard for (interstingly, both men have defended Arsenal's policy in the past) was not a good start. The second point is, that at Arsenal, if you are good enough, you make it. Sinple as that, wherever you come from, if you work hard and have the talent, you get there. That is the principal of sport and, supposedly, of the society we live in, I don't see why this should all of a sudden become politicised because the England team is no good. I'm sure there are a number of English players Wenger would take but the prices are astronomical at present.
Little Dutch
FA and several British governments are to blame! Very little time, money or effort is invested in British kids. Limiting the number of foreign players would only make the premier league as poor as the national team. When the league was full of english players the england team struggled to make WC finals never mind the bloody quater finals have some people got no memories???
sport
Amazing, what you are not addressing at all in your its the fa's fault, they are mishandling the english game, which i happen to think is true they are a bunch of idiots, is that is the same situation foir every club not just Arsenal, so how come every other club, every other club, repeat every nother club, bar none, repeat bar none in England and Europe has more host nation players than Arsenal in most cases up to 500/600% more first team squad players, about the closest is 300% more. Its not like Arsenal are slightly out of line here, And dont give us that not technically enough gifted bull, Arsenal have won nothing for a couple of years, the others have. Man Utd;s football with 15plus British nationals is every bit as entertaining, flowing and good to watch as arsenals. You seem to think im anti Arsenal im not im anti hypocrites and pro football.
Tonytime
I am not really sure what the Daily Telegraph is trying to say in the article as it says that Arsenal has a wealth of English players in their Academy and then goes on to say that Liverpool only has two English players playing in the first team?? Whatever the issue of the argument I do have to say that the Daily Telegraph is somewhat lacking in its homework. I am not going to join in any arguments about the rights or wrongs of having English / British players in any squad but I do want to put the record straight as to THFC players. In recent times we have only had King (and a certain Mr Campbell) that came to our 1st Team via our Academy and that is entirely due to the lack of foresight by the garbage BoD and Management we used to have. It has all changed since 2001 and you will find that the 1st Team Squad for next season has SIX English (and one French) Academy players and they are:- Barcham (England capped); O’Hara (England capped); Ifil; Barnard; Maghoma; Daniels. These Academy players will join our other English players in the 1st Team Squad of which there are ten and all of whom have been capped at some level. In our 3rd Year Academy, out of the 17 players we have 13 English players (6 of whom have been capped by England); a further English born player who has been called up by ROI; one from Northern Ireland and one each from France and Czech Republic. We have 9 players in our 2nd Year Academy of which 5 are English (one capped); 2 further English players that have been called up by ROI; one Italian and one Norwegian. We have 11 1st Year Academy players and I believe that 7 of those are English but I cannot confirm that at this stage. Those are the facts and all information has come directly from THFC website. As stated earlier I don’t think the Daily Telegraph has done its homework properly because if it is the number of English players coming via Academy into 1st Team Squad, that they have an issue with, then we have 7 for next season. Personally, I would love to see more British players coming through to be the stars of the game but quite frankly I really don’t care if any of our players are African, French, Chinese or American as long as they can make THFC stronger. Our Academy is open to all and not just British players and that is the way it should be. THFC has a policy of looking for the best young players in Europe with an emphasis on British players. I am all for a sensible debate but let’s put that facts down first.
GilzeanIsKing
But why can't United find any English youth products? Why can't Liverpool? Why can't Tottenham? (Who operate in roughly the same catchment area we do)? Why can't Chelsea? Arsenal have spent a great deal of money developing the David Rocastle Centre of Excellence in Islington and we are beginning, after ten years of restructuring our academy system, to get a flow of promising young English talent through. The fact that only really Boro, Soton and Villa have fruitful academies says something about the lack of quality. Arsenal appear to be a club looking to rectify this.
Little Dutch
Oh and does anyone else see the irony in the fact that Arsenal and Tottenham had to appoint Frenchmen (Wenger, Commoli) beoifre they really started restructuring their academies properly? The French recognised the lack of quality they were producing in the late 80s early 90s and developed Clarefontaine. The English F.A still refuses to accept that there is a problem and instead shift the blame onto us to cover their own shortcomings.
Little Dutch
Well said Gilzean. The information in the Telegraph is a little inaccurate. What I am surprised they haven't seem to mention is the number of players making the leap from academy to the 1st team squad and the reasons for the failure of some to do so. In a lot of cases, overseas players joining academies do not come free - take Pekhart and Olsen at THFC for example and I am sure there are similar examples at other clubs including Arsenal where fees are paid and not disclosed - and because of this initial financial investment these players may receive preferential initial treatment which hastens their development. Again, are we really talking about a level playing field? Going back to the argument about the proportion of overseas players, it does seem that other leagues in Europe which are regarded as the Prem's equal have enjoyed greater club and national successes despite having a higher proportion of domestic players participating in their league. I think the greatest problem has been the ludicrous amount of money in the Premiership which has tempted clubs into buying short term success (and often not that) at the expense of long term development of British youngsters. Maybe as Kernowboy suggested, some form of capping of expenditure/wages etc might calm this down. If you aren't allowed to pay for youngsters to join the academy then maybe this will have an impact?
Gromit
Tony, you're harping on about the nationality of the fans on this site, but just about all of the foreign fans on this thread are posting better English than you at the moment! Earlier on in the discussion you were going on about Arsenal not having enough ENGLISH players and saying how it's damaging the England national team. In your last post, you say United have X number of BRITISH nationals. I'm not fussed about the England team because they're so boring and over-rated, why on earth would I give two ****s about the other home nations???? Fact: It's the responsibility of the National association to produce footballing talent, not the responsibility of the club. As LD said, Wenger and the board are responsible for the wellbeing of Arsenal Football Club and the continuing entertainment of it's fans.
simmy8_2000
Little Dutch – I have just checked our 2nd Year Academy and the 7 British players (5 capable of playing for England and 2 ROI) and they came from the following: Watford; Edmonton; Camden; Enfield (2); Northolt; Wanstead. I think that is pretty much in our catchment area.
GilzeanIsKing
100+ posts already.......I just KNEW that (yet another) thread had been 'hijacked' by the 'Arsenal to blame for the state of English football ' brigade......... :-) To be honest, I can't see the point of spending so much time scapegoating one club for the state of the national game. What bloody difference does it make where a player comes from as long as they're good enough and fit in well at your club? A hypothetical question, but reverse the current situation......just say Arsenal had a 100% English squad......what then? English football suddenly transformed? England winning the World Cup? I think not, so the accusations against us are really unfounded. The root of the national squad problem lies far deeper than us not fielding 'enough' English players.
BergkampsBoot
Blaming domestic English clubs achieves nothing in improving the national game. The way it works in youth football at a grass roots level is that a kid plays for a local football team, does well enough to be picked up by the local town side and, if good enough hopefully gets spotted by a league team. If these kids are not getting the coaching they need at a local level, blaming every club in the football league isn't going to improve their skills, or get them noticed by the bigger clubs. It's a sad fact that grass roots youth football in this country - including some teams at league level - remain financially unsupported and are more often than not coached by a volunteer parent who do not have the skills or experience to improve these kids to the level where they are likely to be spotted. It is heartening that the bigger clubs - INCLUDING Arsenal are starting to address the problem, but these kids being picked up by the likes of us / sp*rs / man u are the lucky ones in that have already been coached to the level where they've been noticed. I have seen countless youngsters who have had the potential to play for bigger clubs (even if it's only to lower league level) who have drifted away and been lost to football simply because they didn't get the coaching they needed. Now we can all sit here blaming Arsenal for this state of affairs, or we can 1) protest to the FA to get things changed, and 2) stop whinging about the state of the national game, get off our arses and get out there and start putting in some effort OURSELVES to help kids at grass root level.....
BergkampsBoot
Tonytime - your comment "....If i were a young Irish kid from Kilburn, why would i go support Arsenal..." I'm from North London and have supported Arsenal my whole life - I didn't choose to support Arsenal because of the nationality of our players (many of whom were not English anyway) and I don't think kids today do either.
BergkampsBoot
Little Dutch – our Academy was “resurrected” by Levy and Arnesen and was in place before Comolli came along. With reference to catchment area, I have just checked out our 3rd Year Academy English players and they come from the following: Enfield (4); Dagenham; Stevenage; Newham; Basildon; Barnet; Swindon; Harlow. Other than Swindon then I think it is fair to say that they are all pretty local. I will be the first to admit that the returns from our Academy over the years have been abysmal but since we have had professionals running the Club then we have come on in leaps and bounds since 2001 and, hopefully, we will begin to reap the rewards of the Academy – we were certainly far behind you on youth due to Wenger going that route but I can assure you that our Youth Policy is extremely strong as is the financial backing behind it.
GilzeanIsKing
not sure how this thread ended up being about nationallity when it started on ol' purple nose and his comments but hey ho.... one question for you all out there, and this isn't loaded in any way just wanted to canvas some opinion. Why isn't the cream of English talent being picked up by top european clubs in the way that we do for foriegn youngsters... is it lack of talent, attitude problems, the fact that no matter how much we rip Reyes most 18 year old most British kids would struggle massively to adapt to a different culture? Opinions please, this question is troubling me
kenny lunt
p.s in my opinion it is a combination of all three and the fact that if they sign for a 'local' team and have even the smallest smidgen of success they are on easy street and thats all they really want
kenny lunt
According to Wikipedia the French Academy was originally mooted in the mid70s but only got off the ground at the end of the 80s. I think the biggest incentive made in the rapid development of the academy was the failure of the French to qualify for WC1994, and then impending embarassment if they didn't get their act together for WC1998 that they were hosting. I think the other point has to be is that its all well and good having an academy but if this does not lead to progress to the 1st team squad then its a wasted investment. And if there has been an initial investment to get a player into the academy then its obvious that the club will make more effort with this player to get a return.
Gromit
Fantastic point Kenny. You can actually go further and say "how come very few british players play in Europe at all, not just youngsters?" Well I know of one English youngster snapped up by Real Madrid. He was only 8 at the time, Madrid moved his whole family over there, brought them a house etc, that was a few years ago. The answer is pretty simple in my opinion - lack of technical ability. English players tend to be all about 'passion' and getting stuck in. Until that attitude changes, and The FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION get their heads out their arses, it will continue to be the case.
simmy8_2000
Bergkampsboot – I am in total agreement with you that we should all stop talking and get something done to get kids the coaching they deserve. I don’t wish to argue about rivalries but I would like to quote you the following from THFC Audited Accounts (Chairman’s Report) which highlights THFC’s commitment to youth and helping out the disadvantaged. I am sure that you would agree that projects such as these are far more worthwhile than paying the over the top wages of Prima Donna players (whoever they play for but I was looking towards West London!). Here is the extract: “During the season our coaching programme provided almost 400,000 sporting opportunities to children and young people, a 28% increase on the previous year. The programme was also the first Barclays Spaces for Sports project. A £600,000 grant was awarded to The London Borough of Haringey in partnership with the Club. The other key highlight was the Prime Minister’s visit to the Club to launch the national Kickz programme. Tottenham Hotspur were one of three professional clubs chosen to pilot the estates-based programme, offering football coaching and alternative opportunities to youngsters living in some of the most disadvantaged communities. Recognition of our work was received when we won the 2005 Best Corporate Social Responsibility business from London Borough of Haringey which recognises our contribution to sport, social and healthier lifestyle opportunities, education, training and employment and we have created many newly qualified coaches through Level 1 courses running at the Club since March 2006. Before the year end the Club transferred all community operations to a separate non-profit making charitable foundation. The Tottenham Hotspur Foundation is committed to the promotion, for the benefit of the public, of urban or rural regeneration in areas of social and economic deprivation. We were pleased that the Club was able to make a £4.5 million donation to the foundation and these funds will be utilised across a range of future projects which promote community participation in healthy recreation, in particular by the provision of facilities for the playing of football; the advancement of the education of the public in the subject of physical education, literacy, numeracy and personal social and health education.”
GilzeanIsKing
BergkampsBoot, I don't think the article that has been hijacked. It was actually Arsenal fans who introduced this subject with the third person responding - I assume Andy-bayor is a Gunner. Therefore it is not unexpected that other fans will join in especially if their Academy efforts are being criticised. Unfortunately it seems that the information provided by the Telegraph was slightly economical with all of the facts - any information is misleading if the whole picture isn't told.
Gromit
You're right Gilzean, this is to do with a very draconian F.A law that clubs are only allowed to attract youth players for the academy from within a 20 mile radius of the training ground, thus decreasing a club's chance of attracting young talent. For example, of our youth products, I know Connolly is from Barnet, Hoyte os from Islington, Randall is from Milton Keynes and I think Jay Simspon is from HighWycombe. This limits what clubs can do for young talent, in the current academy system, these restrictions don't apply in Europe. So Arsenal are only allowed English lads from North London, Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire, whereas they can cherry pick from the whole of Europe. 20 miles versus the whole of Europe means that it is understandable that an academy will end up with a lot more foreign youngsters than English. Especially when one considers that London has a lot of clubs so there is more competition.
Little Dutch
Little Dutch - I agree with you but the FA is a whole different issue and my views on that "organisation" could get me into trouble!!!
GilzeanIsKing
completely agree simmy and hopefully the development of kids at academies like ours will start to churn out some strong players in the future that will interest the continental clubs. The kids will then learn about the technical aspects of the game abroad and bring that quality to the england team... in turn home based players would compete with these guys for slots in the England team and raise their stadards as a result. This is all assuming of course that we don't have some cretin as England manager that values grit and passion above an actual ability to play the game.
kenny lunt
Hi Gromit, you’ll find that the thread started with something like: “That’s good news about the academy! Some of the naysayers can see we are contributing”. Some people hate us so much their only response is a sneer and nasty little digs. I’m not sure if that includes you or not, but I don’t take kindly to that talk. I find it offensive that Tonytime (with his pals) breezes in demanding that English gooners declare themselves when he clicks his fingers – last time I checked he wasn’t Vital Arsenal’s sheriff. I also think that throwing accusations of ‘reverse racism’ is a typical defence of flag-wavers who want to DISCRIMINATE in favour of English players. People like Gilzean are debating rather than throwing muck because they dislike Arsenal. Some fools insist that we are the one of the main reasons for English football’s decline! These hysterics are pathetic sour grapes by people who don’t know how to lose (or do anything else) with dignity. Is English football really declining? I thought its where its always been, more or less anyway… When the EPL was stuffed with English players did that really get the national team further? Cowardly excuses! Development of players over here is a joke, and you don’t undo generations (yes, it didn’t happen overnight) of pathetic underinvestment by blaming Arsenal for over-importing. Somebody said recently that the arch on Wembley alone could have helped pay for England’s Clairfontaine!! Do you reckon there might be some truth there? Arsenal are not responsible for fixing the rubble created by inept national institutions. Somebody above labels foreigners ‘imported journeymen mecenaries’. Do you realise how hypocritical and mad that is when Terry/Lampard won’t take less than £131k a week? What planet are we on, when Rio goes to ManU for £30m? We cannot compete with that – it’s that simple! I can say this with no guilt, because although I WHOLLY defend my club’s actions I do believe ideologically that it’s good to have players of national and even local origin. I'd love to explain but my lunch hour is up. I think that forcing rules is an artificial construct though, when the EPL and FA have made everyting so global and commercial. This is why I am happy that our great club is doing something constructive with the academy. Positive long-term action like this will help English talent rise to the top naturally not false rules.
Andy-bayor
Hi Andy, I've read the article and its all about Sir Alex saying it was going to be a 4 horse race. The Academy topic was raised by those who have posted. I think Tonytime and colleagues do have some good points to make though they have raised them in an unfortunate way. Little Dutch is also right about the 20mile rule being archaic ... I think though the concern must be ... and I will use one of my teams players as an example - if we pay the best part of an eventual £3m for Pekhart, he is bound to get more investment in time and effort at the Academy due to that initial investment - all signings therefore must be fully and publically disclosed - a benefit for maybe all football. For me, everyone should have an actual opportunity, so maybe rules should be introduced about limiting the amount of compensation teams can pay for players that'll go into an academy. I do agree that Arsenal have made the most of the current regulations so maybe they should be altered - 1) a max compensation of £100K paid for Academy players 2) no restrictions on where they can be selected from in England 3) a proper nationwide Academy and reserve league to provide proper competition. p.s. I don't mind the occasional Gooner dig as I am sure you do at Spurs. My first inclination at reading the article was 'about time' but then I realised its a big problem across the Premiership - as has been mentioned - in the other leagues of Europe there is less reliance on imports and more on the proper development of domestic players. I think in Italy clubs can recruit from anywhere and I also like the co-ownership deals where two clubs can invest in a player making sure that a player gets competitive games. If this was to happen between Premiership and Championship deals I do think it would help development of young players.
Gromit
thanks for those few words of support Mr Gromit, albeit tempered. Whlst I see things are changing with the youth set up, you cannot argue with the facts as they stand now, comparing arsenal to any other major european club, its just a no brainer to argue against hard facts. Ive learnt a bit reading these posts, which is good, ive also become very distressed about the tone and content of the few arrogant and very short sighted posts. I seemed to find myself in a twilight zone of reverse racism, double talking hypocrisy and overwhelming arrogance. But considering it all thats pretty much a reflection on modern britain, as much as arsenal football club. May good football be our good fortune.
Tonytime
Tony, out of curiosity, which club do you support?
prits
prits, you will find me on lots of sites, i support football in general, clubs i have some admiration for are, Villa cos MON is a top manager, man utd, cos ferguson is likewise, accrington stanley who have had some great ideas to get people involved in their club, huddersfield town for their stance on refusing to pay agents, everton beacuase of moyes handling of the small club jibe by benitez last season, queen of the south in scotland for crazy reasons of my own. Arsenal of old b4 the club became a foreign outpost, crewe for the steady stream of talent they produce and sell on, i could go on, but hey that should be enough amunition for you, it its what you are looking for.
Tonytime
Hey no Tony, I wasnt looking for any ammunition. I wasnt aiming to 'use' your response against ur club. Like I said, just curious, thats all :).
prits
why ??? prits
Tonytime
This is going back many posts, but to reply to laughing norm – the point is not that the most technically adept team always wins, but that Arsenal's technical style of play is not the style in which most English youngsters are trained. If you are looking for musicians for a modern jazz quintet, there is no point in hiring a marching band, however talented they are - you just won't get the right sound out of them.
FunGunner
Why so defensive Tonytime? Most gooners don't bite! You were a bit provocative and drew a few rocks, but you were looking for it I thought! I don't believe you have furthered your understanding of people's mindset here, because if the exchanges above are what helped you 'understand' this, then you are being selective and unfair in your sampling and your techniques. I am a gooner but a football fan too, and like to immerse myself in the game... but you have disdain for Arsenal because it suits your world view, just like my bias suits mine... it doesn't make you any more right than me.
Andy-bayor
Andy- bolloxs, i dont have a world view, answer this straight and i might believe iabit more, Amazing, what you are not addressing at all in your its the fa's fault, they are mishandling the english game, which i happen to think is true they are a bunch of idiots, is that is the same situation foir every club not just Arsenal, so how come every other club, every other club, repeat every nother club, bar none, repeat bar none in England and Europe has more host nation players than Arsenal in most cases up to 500/600% more first team squad players, about the closest is 300% more. Its not like Arsenal are slightly out of line here, And dont give us that not technically enough gifted bull, Arsenal have won nothing for a couple of years, the others have. Man Utd;s football with 15plus British nationals is every bit as entertaining, flowing and good to watch as arsenals. You seem to think im anti Arsenal im not im anti hypocrites and pro football. Its the same for everyone why are you so massively out of line.
Tonytime
Cheers Andy, you have told me all i need to know.
Tonytime
Tony, the answer to that would partly lie in the prices being quoted for English players, but thats already been brought up in this discussion and you dont seem convinced by that argument. No doubt ManU play exciting football, but one look at the prices they have paid for players like Rooney, Rio, Carrick etc gives you an indication. Wenger rated Rooney and Bale but at the prices quoted for them, was out of reach.
prits
Yes Tony whatever! You make a superbly hysterical statistician but it's a shame you have no manners! Your question don't need answering - its staring you in the face...we fielded more foreign players because... wait for it Tone... we wanted to at the time. Are we done giving you explanations now sheriff? You are the one massively out of line - you said you lost your passion for Arsenal when it filled with foreigners. If that's how you select your passions then good for you - carry right on... g'nite buddy!
Andy-bayor
Tony, I'lll ignore that fact that you seem to react rather hysterically to anyone trying to debate with you and try to press home this point that has been made in a number of ways so far. Arsenal have and continue to develop quality English youngsters that currently play in the upper echelons of English football. Sidwell, Pennant, Bentley, Cole etc... Our next crop including Randall, Gibbs, hoyte (both of them), Simpson, Lansbury etc... look just as promising. So lets put the idea that we don’t develop any English talent shall we. The next point that you will no doubt raise is that these players don't play for us anymore, so I'll address that one too. I'm not going to look at this from a lofty and hypothetical viewpoint as you guys seem to want to but instead will ask you.... 3/4 years ago, bentley or Pires? Sidwell or Viera, Cesc, Bert? Pennant may well have had a future with us but had some serious attitude problems that seem to only have been half remedied by an electronic tag and Cole... well we all know what happened there. By letting these kids go and giving them the opportunity to play first team football we have allowed them to develop into the players that they are today.... which is surely a good thing for the English game? It has been said many times all ready that replacing our departing stars (and lets start from Merson, Parlour, Adams, Keown etc rather than Pires, Paddy, TH14 etc) with English players was quite simply too expensive (either out of choice or necessity, it matters little) so our 'foreign policy' is down to necessity, budget and talent... and nothing else. Oh and just for you and your mate Teabags, I am English and Norf London born and bred though I can't describe my contempt for you having to write that.
kenny lunt
 

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